LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching

[IBDaMann]

3. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

The New Testament refers to fire as a baptizing force, not as "hell fire" or as torture.

Luke 12:49 - I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Luke 3:16 - John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Acts 2 -
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

... except for the apocolypse ...

Revelation 20:9 - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

Matthew 13:24-43 is a parable. The very first verse in that series announces that it is a parable aka fictitious story that is used by Jesus to make a point.

New International Version
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. (Matthew 13:24)

I don't know what to tell you. It's right there in the Bible. Jesus references a story about weeds to draw a comparison to what's going to happen to all of the bad people at the end of times.

I mean, it's right there in black and white.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I don't know what to tell you. It's right there in the Bible. Jesus references a story about weeds to draw a comparison to what's going to happen to all of the bad people at the end of times.

I mean, it's right there in black and white.

ZenMode:

You are ignoring the very first verse in the series at Matthew 13:24-43 where it starts out point blank at verse 24 that it is a parable. Notice below. This time I will print the word "parable" in large print.


"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field."" (Matthew 13:24 -- New International Version)


Definition of "parable":

"a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson."

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

A parable is a fictitious story.

": a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

You are ignoring the very first verse in the series at Matthew 13:24-43 where it starts out point blank at verse 24 that it is a parable. Notice below. This time I will print the word "parable" in large print.


"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field."" (Matthew 13:24 -- New International Version)


Definition of "parable":

"a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson."

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

A parable is a fictitious story.

": a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Right.....the parable is fictitious. The comparison he draws to the time when God comes back to earth is not.

 

[Litmus]

Ok. What part of what I said do you disagree with? In order to decide who's saved and who's not, there has to be judging, doesn't there?

in christianity if you just accept the love of god and repent you can be forgiven.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Right.....the parable is fictitious. The comparison he draws to the time when God comes back to earth is not.

ZenMode:

Jesus wasn't making a comparison in light of the fact hellfire torment is not literal.

And I don't know what you mean by "when God comes back to earth."

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

Jesus wasn't making a comparison in light of the fact hellfire torment is not literal.

And I don't know what you mean by "when God comes back to earth."

Why would he tell a parable about something and make about something imaginary that was the basis of his preaching?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Why would he tell a parable about something and make about something imaginary that was the basis of his preaching?

I gave you the definition of "parable" at post 23.

LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching

ZenMode: Since it's stated like that in the Bible, of course I believe it. Psalm 37:10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. Psalm 37:11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight...

www.justplainpolitics.com

The two definitions say more or less the same thing:

1. "A parable is a short story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson." (Source: Literary Terms)

2. A parable is "a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea:" (Source: Cambridge Dictionary)

Notice that none of those definitions said a parable is a true story or is based on something that actually happened. You have yet to present a single verse of scripture that supports the claim that hellfire torment is literal.


Whenever "fire" is used in the Bible and it happens to be in a parable, it's with reference to complete destruction/annihilation, just as literal fire completely destroys.

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

Jesus wasn't making a comparison in light of the fact hellfire torment is not literal.

And I don't know what you mean by "when God comes back to earth."

You aren't in a position to speak for Jesus. He told a parable, yes. The parable was about the weeds being destroyed in fire. He then equated what happens to those who are aren't saved. What he is saying happens to those who aren't saved is that they are destroyed in a lake of fire.

It makes no sense that he would tell a parable, link it to something if that something wasn't real. That's the idea of a parable - link the lesson to real life.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You aren't in a position to speak for Jesus. He told a parable, yes. The parable was about the weeds being destroyed in fire. He then equated what happens to those who are aren't saved. What he is saying happens to those who aren't saved is that they are destroyed in a lake of fire.

It makes no sense that he would tell a parable, link it to something if that something wasn't real. That's the idea of a parable - link the lesson to real life.

ZenMode:

A parable, by definition, is a fictitious story. What is it about that don't you get? A fictitious story cannot be compared to anything that is real; it can only be used to make an illustration.

For instance, the story of the boy who cried wolf is a parable. It is an illustration to warn people to stop deliberately making false alarms, because when they really need help, nobody will believe them. The boy who cried wolf was not a real boy. But in the parable, he kept claiming there was a wolf and people kept coming to his rescue. Then finally, when there really was a wolf, nobody believed him and so nobody came and saved him.

Since you insist the lake of fire is literal, suppose you answer the question that I previously asked you regarding Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:14​

And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.


QUESTION to ZenMode: Can death and the Grave literally be hurled into a lake of fire and burned up?


Second time asking.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

whether or not hell is a lake of fire is irrelevant to those who believe in Jesus Christ......and those who don't do not give a fuck in the first place.......

 

[Alter2Ego]

You aren't in a position to speak for Jesus. He told a parable, yes. The parable was about the weeds being destroyed in fire. He then equated what happens to those who are aren't saved. What he is saying happens to those who aren't saved is that they are destroyed in a lake of fire.

It makes no sense that he would tell a parable, link it to something if that something wasn't real. That's the idea of a parable - link the lesson to real life.

ZenMode:

When did I tell you or anybody else that I'm speaking for Jesus?

BTW: The parable of the boy who cried wolf is an Aesops Fable in which a shepherd boy kept making a deliberate false alarm that a wolf was attacking his sheep. (So it wasn't him that was in danger, as I told you in the previous message, it was his sheep.) When the wolf finally came and attacked his sheep, nobody came because they thought he was lying again. Below is the weblink to the story:

Story Arts | Aesop's ABC | The Boy Who Cried Wolf

Educational Web site, designed for teachers, librarians, and students,explores the use of storytelling in the classroom to enhance speaking, listening, reading and writing skills.

www.storyarts.org

 

[Matt Dillon]

Christianity is for stupid people. So....

So you should embrace it?

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

A parable, by definition, is a fictitious story. What is it about that don't you get? A fictitious story cannot be compared to anything that is real; it can only be used to make an illustration.

For instance, the story of the boy who cried wolf is a parable. It is an illustration to warn people to stop deliberately making false alarms, because when they really need help, nobody will believe them. The boy who cried wolf was not a real boy. But in the parable, he kept claiming there was a wolf and people kept coming to his rescue. Then finally, when there really was a wolf, nobody believed him and so nobody came and saved him.

Since you insist the lake of fire is literal, suppose you answer the question that I previously asked you regarding Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:14​

And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.


QUESTION to ZenMode: Can death and the Grave literally be hurled into a lake of fire and burned up?


Second time asking.

Yes, the parable is the story about the weed. That parable, as parables do, are meant to teach something about reality. That reality is what Jesus says about the end of times.

I've already posted an explanation about "2nd death".

 

[Alter2Ego]

ZenMode:

When did I tell you or anybody else that I'm speaking for Jesus?

BTW: The parable of the boy who cried wolf is an Aesops Fable in which a shepherd boy kept making a deliberate false alarm that a wolf was attacking his sheep. (So it wasn't him that was in danger, as I told you in the previous message, it was his sheep.) When the wolf finally came and attacked his sheep, nobody came because they thought he was lying again. Below is the weblink to the story:

Story Arts | Aesop's ABC | The Boy Who Cried Wolf

Educational Web site, designed for teachers, librarians, and students,explores the use of storytelling in the classroom to enhance speaking, listening, reading and writing skills.

www.storyarts.org

ZenMode:

You are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat while being careful to dodge my question at post 50. Not only that, you have dodged all five of the questions that I asked in my opening post. The reason why you're avoiding those questions is obvious: You are refusing to reason on the scriptures.

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

You are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat while being careful to dodge my question at post 50. Not only that, you have dodged all five of the questions that I asked in my opening post. The reason why you're avoiding those questions is obvious: You are refusing to reason on the scriptures.

A parable is a story that is meant to link to real life. You don't tell a parable about a parable. Jesus told the parable about the weeds to teach a lesson about what was going to happen to those who weren't saved. That was his entire ministry - the end is coming, you better get your shit together or you won't be saved.

 

[Alter2Ego]

A parable is a story that is meant to link to real life. You don't tell a parable about a parable. Jesus told the parable about the weeds to teach a lesson about what was going to happen to those who weren't saved. That was his entire ministry - the end is coming, you better get your shit together or you won't be saved.

ZenMode:

That's false. A parable is nothing more than a fictitious story used to illustrate a point or teach a moral lesson. Even the kids dictionary defines it as such.

"a very short story told to teach a moral or religious lesson.
Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us that it is as important to help strangers as it is to help friends."

Definition of PARABLE

a very short story told to teach a moral or religious lesson.... See the full definition

kids.wordsmyth.net

The Bible says Jesus ALWAYS taught by means of illustrations. Notice this point in the scripture quoted directly below, and keep your eyes on the words that are enlarged in blue color and bold print.

"{33} Another illustration he [Jesus] spoke to them: 'The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.' {34} All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;"(Matthew 13:33-34)


An illustration is not "real life."


There is not one single verse of scripture in any of the 66 books within the Judeo-Christian Bible that supports the false dogma of literal hellfire torment. The Bible gives two choices: DEATH (annihilation) or EVERLASTING LIFE.

"For the wages sin pays is DEATH, but the gift God gives is EVERLASTING LIFE by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

 

[ZenMode]

ZenMode:

That's false. A parable is nothing more than a fictitious story used to illustrate a point or teach a moral lesson. Even the kids dictionary defines it as such.

"a very short story told to teach a moral or religious lesson.
Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us that it is as important to help strangers as it is to help friends."

Definition of PARABLE

a very short story told to teach a moral or religious lesson.... See the full definition

kids.wordsmyth.net

The Bible says Jesus ALWAYS taught by means of illustrations. Notice this point in the scripture quoted directly below, and keep your eyes on the words that are enlarged in blue color and bold print.

"{33} Another illustration he [Jesus] spoke to them: 'The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.' {34} All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;"(Matthew 13:33-34)


An illustration is not "real life."


There is not one single verse of scripture in any of the 66 books within the Judeo-Christian Bible that supports the false dogma of literal hellfire torment. The Bible gives two choices: DEATH (annihilation) or EVERLASTING LIFE.

"For the wages sin pays is DEATH, but the gift God gives is EVERLASTING LIFE by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

"
There is not one single verse of scripture in any of the 66 books within the Judeo-Christian Bible that supports the false dogma of literal hellfire torment. The Bible gives two choices: DEATH (annihilation) or EVERLASTING LIFE."

Right. That's what I said in my VERY first post.

The idea of eternal punishment in hell isn't what Jews believed and isn't what Jesus believed or taught.

 

[Alter2Ego]

A parable is a story that is meant to link to real life. You don't tell a parable about a parable. Jesus told the parable about the weeds to teach a lesson about what was going to happen to those who weren't saved. That was his entire ministry - the end is coming, you better get your shit together or you won't be saved.

ZenMode:

Telling people they would be destroyed (annihilated) if they did not repent was not Jesus' entire ministry. Jesus stated that the main focus of his ministry was getting Jehovah's name known and announcing Jehovah's heavenly kingdom as the only cure for mankind's woes.

John 17:25​

Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me.

John 17:26​

I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”



He repeated that sentiment in the model prayer.

Matthew 6:9​

“You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

Matthew 6:10​

Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.

 

[IBDaMann]

in christianity if you just accept the love of god and repent you can be forgiven.

I have a question for you on this, and I'll extend the question to other Christians as well ...

How do you know if you are repenting correctly? How can you know how to correct someone who is repenting incorrectly? Presumably, if you can know how to repent correctly, then I can know as well, and I could learn it well and become an expert, such that I could become a repenting coach, provide repenting counseling and perhaps make a YouTube repenting chanel.

How can one become an expert on correctly repenting? I didn't see any repenting manual in the Bible, but 1 John 1:9 tells me that I don't even need to be a Christian or to believe anything in particular, that if I (one) confess(es) my/his sins, God is faithful and just and will simply forgive those sins, and will cleanse me/him from all unrighteousness. Is that what you understand repentance to be, i.e. confessing sins? (if so, the Catholics are light years ahead of everyone else; with them, confession is regular grind).

I had a discussion with gfm7175 about salvation, and he seems to have a solid grip on that topic, but I wonder if really anything matters regarding repentence or any other action if, per Romans 10:13, all that is needed is to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, again whether or not one is a Christian.

I think there's a valuable niche in becoming a repentance expert. Personally, I would like to establish my own certification exam offered on Pearson Vue, because I think there would be a lot of value in such a credential. Salvation is in demand.

So, how do I start?