Manslaughter?

LadyT said:
I just don't think that jail time is the answer in this case. Accidents happen. I don't think she set out to have one of her kids drown.
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I tend to agree.

Context and facts are everything. And I don't know all the facts.

But, I suspect there was no ill intent or maliciousness involved. It sounds like sheer stupidity and incompetence. If true, this woman is going to suffer and pay for this the rest of her life emotionally, psychologically, perhaps even physically.

If she has other kids, they should be take away, while she undergoes court-ordred counseling and parenting skills classes.
 
She made a horrific misjudgement. Let's take her away from all of her kids and ensure they grow up without their mother! That'll fix it.

Years of prison for the absolute worst thing that likely has ever happened to her.
 
DigitalDave said:
LadyT, honest question, have you ever taken care of a toddler? Not that I think it makes you more qualified to assess the situation, but I do think you would feel the same way. If I have to walk out of the bathroom for something, I don't walk, I run. It's just kind of instinct when you care about the child, that you protect them from a dangerous situation like drowning.
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Well, the woman has 4 kids. My guess is that she's done this time and time again with nothing bad happening until now. Still at its core, I don't think I could convict her to years in prison because of this. Or any parent for that matter.
 
Cypress said:
I tend to agree.

Context and facts are everything. And I don't know all the facts.

But, I suspect there was no ill intent or maliciousness involved. It sounds like sheer stupidity and incompetence. If true, this woman is going to suffer and pay for this the rest of her life emotionally, psychologically, perhaps even physically.

If she has other kids, they should be take away, while she undergoes court-ordred counseling and parenting skills classes.
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That I can agree to. She did something unbelievably stupid. But years of jail and three motherless children isn't going to solve anything.
 
Damocles said:
She made a horrific misjudgement. Let's take her away from all of her kids and ensure they grow up without their mother! That'll fix it.

Years of prison for the absolute worst thing that likely has ever happened to her.
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Sounds like they didn't have much of a mother in the first place. I'm sure grandma would step up to take care of them, she seemed like she knew the mother was dangerous to her kids.
 
LadyT said:
Well, the woman has 4 kids. My guess is that she's done this time and time again with nothing bad happening until now. Still at its core, I don't think I could convict her to years in prison because of this. Or any parent for that matter.
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It's hard to say -- there seems to be a history here, according to the article, and certainly all the facts aren't included. It's extremely unlikely that anything close to a maximum sentence would be imposed, and even more likely that the charges would be reduced. Sentencing could even be limited to probation. The thing is, I don't think that our system of justice could ignore this case completely. A lot of circumstances that haven't come to the fore will be considered in the way it is adjudicated.
 
LadyT said:
Well, the woman has 4 kids. My guess is that she's done this time and time again with nothing bad happening until now. Still at its core, I don't think I could convict her to years in prison because of this. Or any parent for that matter.
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It sounds like she was emotionally unstable from reports that her own mother was filing against her before the incident even happened. I just can not understand how anyone on this green earth would think that a parent leaving an 11-month old and a two year old in a bathtub unattended for 10 minutes is a fit parent.
 
Thorn said:
It's hard to say -- there seems to be a history here, according to the article, and certainly all the facts aren't included. It's extremely unlikely that anything close to a maximum sentence would be imposed, and even more likely that the charges would be reduced. Sentencing could even be limited to probation. The thing is, I don't think that our system of justice could ignore this case completely. A lot of circumstances that haven't come to the fore will be considered in the way it is adjudicated.
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I think what Cypress suggested is a good idea (based on what we read in the article).
 
DigitalDave said:
It sounds like she was emotionally unstable from reports that her own mother was filing against her before the incident even happened. I just can not understand how anyone on this green earth would think that a parent leaving an 11-month old and a two year old in a bathtub unattended for 10 minutes is a fit parent.
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Who here argued that she was a 'fit' parent?
 
Her negligence killed this child. I think she should definatly experience some jail time, and the grandmother should be given custody of the children until she undergoes counseling after her jail time.
 
DigitalDave said:
Her negligence killed this child. I think she should definatly experience some jail time, and the grandmother should be given custody of the children until she undergoes counseling after her jail time.
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Only a person who is not a parent could suggest that she isn't already in a self-imposed prison. This is likely the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to the woman or that is ever likely to happen to her.
 
Damocles said:
Who here argued that she was a 'fit' parent?
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I said 'fit' because I don't quite have a word that describes it. The argument is that taking her away from her children and leaving them motherless is the wrong way to go, but I think I wouldn't want to be a child with a mother that cares more about her shoes than my life. She is not 'fit' to watch these other children.
 
Damocles said:
Only a person who is not a parent could suggest that she isn't already in a self-imposed prison. This is likely the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to the woman or that is ever likely to happen to her.
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Don't give me that crap, I'm a person who has taken on the role of a parent to someone who is not his own. I can not believe the complete lack of care this women has for her children.
 
DigitalDave said:
It sounds like she was emotionally unstable from reports that her own mother was filing against her before the incident even happened. I just can not understand how anyone on this green earth would think that a parent leaving an 11-month old and a two year old in a bathtub unattended for 10 minutes is a fit parent.
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I don't think anyone suggested she was a fit parent. She displayed stupidity and incompetence in this scenario.

The question is, does it rise to the level of a criminal offense? Me, I'm not willing to rush to judgement without all the facts. There could be a number of mitigating circumstances...maybe there was only three inches of water in the bathtub. Can someone be reasonably expected to know that you can dronw in three inches of water? I don't know. I don't even know if its possible to drown in three inches of water.

I think everyone agrees that at a minimum, this woman would need court ordered parenting skills classes and education, before she could have her other kids back. I'm just not so sure about putting her in jail, especially without knowing all the facts and mitigating circumstances.
 
DigitalDave said:
I said 'fit' because I don't quite have a word that describes it. The argument is that taking her away from her children and leaving them motherless is the wrong way to go, but I think I wouldn't want to be a child with a mother that cares more about her shoes than my life. She is not 'fit' to watch these other children.
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I see soccer moms every day of the weeking, in their SUVs with kids in the back, driving excessivly fast and talking on cell phones. Which increase the chance of accident, injury and death to the children by an order of magnitude.

I'm not sure jail is the answer in every case of negligent but unintentional death.
 
DigitalDave said:
Don't give me that crap, I'm a person who has taken on the role of a parent to someone who is not his own. I can not believe the complete lack of care this women has for her children.
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I'm only feeding back what you tried to feed us earlier. The "have you ever taken care of a toddler" crap.

When it is your child you will know. I do not think that prison is the answer to this. I can't imagine what would be. Nothing they could do to me would be worse than what I was putting myself through if this had happened to one of my girls.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think anyone suggested she was a fit parent. She displayed stupidity and incompetence in this scenario.

The question is, does it rise to the level of a criminal offense? Me, I'm not willing to rush to judgement without all the facts. There could be a number of mitigating circumstances...maybe there was only three inches of water in the bathtub. Can someone be reasonably expected to know that you can dronw in three inches of water? I don't know. I don't even know if its possible to drown in three inches of water.

I think everyone agrees that at a minimum, this woman would need court ordered parenting skills classes and education, before she could have her other kids back. I'm just not so sure about putting her in jail, especially without knowing all the facts and mitigating circumstances.
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I know this from lifeguarding:

You can drown in one-inch of water. It doesn't matter how high the water is, it matters only that there is enough water to enter the lungs.
 
DigitalDave said:
I know this from lifeguarding:

You can drown in one-inch of water. It doesn't matter how high the water is, it matters only that there is enough water to enter the lungs.
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Exactly my point.

You have specialized experience to know that one can drown in one or two inches of water.

Most laws only apply to what people in the general public can reasonably be expected to know. I'm not sure if it can be reasonably expected for people to generally know you can drown in an inch or two of water.
 
Damocles said:
I'm only feeding back what you tried to feed us earlier. The "have you ever taken care of a toddler" crap.

When it is your child you will know. I do not think that prison is the answer to this. I can't imagine what would be. Nothing they could do to me would be worse than what I was putting myself through if this had happened to one of my girls.
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I'm not giving anyone crap, but you sure as fuck are giving me crap. I guess you can judge though because you're the blood parent of a child, you share much more in common with this women. :rolleyes:

I don't think that after you are willing to leave your two children in a bath tub unattended, you probably are borderline not giving a fuck about them. Being someone that has cared for a child since she was the age of 6 months to two years, I think I can pretty much say that if you are going to do that, then your don't give a shit about your kids. Are you willing to do that Damo? If not then I don't think your little 'feed back' applyies to me. As a matter of fact, you are pretty much accusing me of not caring for this child enough that I wouldn't feel remorse and guilt for the rest of my life had I let her die in that situation. I already know how I would feel, but I wouldn't ever let it happen because I do care. This women, obviously doesn't.
 
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