Manslaughter?

Damocles said:
She made a horrific misjudgement. Let's take her away from all of her kids and ensure they grow up without their mother! That'll fix it.

Years of prison for the absolute worst thing that likely has ever happened to her.
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A misjudgement? Look, if she had left the two year old alone I might even be able to agree, though it'd still be tough. If you leave a toddler in the tub, you have better than even chances that the kid will be alive when you come back. Personally, leaving the entire floor, while a two year old is in a tub, I can't even comprehend it. But, I still think you have even or better odds on that.

An 11 month old? Get out of here.

That's criminal negligence.
 
LadyT said:
I think involuntary manslaughter could be an appropriate charge, but I don't think the article specified.

But I still don't think the 20 years in prison she's facing is the right answer.
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Everyone grab your chairs cause what I am about to say will probably shock you. If she left a 2 year old in charge of an 11 month old and then walked DOWNSTAIRS away from them and something happened, and all that is proved, she needs to be found guilty of second degree manslaughter and she needs to do a minimal amount of time in jail. I have an 18 month old and a 4 year old and I would NEVER leave my 4 year old in charge to make sure the 18 month old was safe. She knew or should have known that her conduct put BOTH children at risk of great bodily harm or death and that friends and neighbors is manslaughter. She showed a reckless disregard for the safety and well being of her child.
 
Thorn said:
It's hard to say -- there seems to be a history here, according to the article, and certainly all the facts aren't included. It's extremely unlikely that anything close to a maximum sentence would be imposed, and even more likely that the charges would be reduced. Sentencing could even be limited to probation. The thing is, I don't think that our system of justice could ignore this case completely. A lot of circumstances that haven't come to the fore will be considered in the way it is adjudicated.
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I agree, she should stand trial and let all of the facts get out.
 
Damocles said:
Only a person who is not a parent could suggest that she isn't already in a self-imposed prison. This is likely the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to the woman or that is ever likely to happen to her.
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I disagree, it has nothing to do with whether or not Dave is a parent.

You are clearly wrong here.

Susan Smith was not in a self-imposed prison. Andrea yates, the list goes on. You are making the same mistake much of our culture makes, you are glorifying motherhood and mothers.

You are wrong to do so. Mothers can and do hurt their children, sometimes intentionally, and you don't even know that this is not the case here. The legal system must step in at that point.
 
Damocles said:
I'm only feeding back what you tried to feed us earlier. The "have you ever taken care of a toddler" crap.

When it is your child you will know. I do not think that prison is the answer to this. I can't imagine what would be. Nothing they could do to me would be worse than what I was putting myself through if this had happened to one of my girls.
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I'm surprised that an adoptive father would say what you just said to Dave. He has clearly stated he loves this child as if it were his own, and you are dismissing that.
 
Darla said:
I disagree, it has nothing to do with whether or not Dave is a parent.

You are clearly wrong here.

Susan Smith was not in a self-imposed prison. Andrea yates, the list goes on. You are making the same mistake much of our culture makes, you are glorifying motherhood and mothers.

You are wrong to do so. Mothers can and do hurt their children, sometimes intentionally, and you don't even know that this is not the case here. The legal system must step in at that point.
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Andrea Yates was and is crazy. Smith and this woman were selfish albeit in different ways. Smith's children were inconvenient and this woman was too self absorbed to be where she should have been. I don't think she should do more than a year in jail but she should do some time. NOt only for herself but for her kids. They need to see that society valued there sister so much that mommy had to go to jail for a while, that is how bad what she did was.
 
Darla said:
.........
You are wrong to do so. Mothers can and do hurt their children, sometimes intentionally, and you don't even know that this is not the case here. The legal system must step in at that point.
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Well, she will get her day in court. I just hope the jury is fair, balanced and reasonable. Unless something shocking comes out about her past and the circumstances surrounding this, I think I'm still going to stand firm in that she shouldn't do much, if any, jail time for this. Its horrible, she was stupid, but as Damo pointed out people do stupid things with their kids all the time. It doesn't mean that they shoudl have the book thrown at them.

Based on what she said when she came out of the house, I am of the opinion that she's racked with guilt and even if she does go to prison that will only be a fraction of the punishment her mind is puttign her through.
 
Thorn said:
But this is so much more than an accident. Knowingly leaving such young children in a tub of water and essentially deserting them to go online (which we all acknowledge can be compelling enough to blot out other things at times) is nothing less than criminal negligence.

Yes, she will suffer, we presume, because her child died. But one of her quoted comments was something like "I have had a terrible year". Granted she may have been in shock, but I've dealt with other patients who showed similar egocentricity when something happened to a family member.

I can't see how this can be ignored under the law.
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Maybe we should murder her?
 
DigitalDave said:
LadyT, honest question, have you ever taken care of a toddler? Not that I think it makes you more qualified to assess the situation, but I do think you would feel the same way. If I have to walk out of the bathroom for something, I don't walk, I run. It's just kind of instinct when you care about the child, that you protect them from a dangerous situation like drowning.
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How many kids drown in a tub, honestly?
 
LadyT said:
Well, she will get her day in court. I just hope the jury is fair, balanced and reasonable. Unless something shocking comes out about her past and the circumstances surrounding this, I think I'm still going to stand firm in that she shouldn't do much, if any, jail time for this. Its horrible, she was stupid, but as Damo pointed out people do stupid things with their kids all the time. It doesn't mean that they shoudl have the book thrown at them.

Based on what she said when she came out of the house, I am of the opinion that she's racked with guilt and even if she does go to prison that will only be a fraction of the punishment her mind is puttign her through.
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Maybe she just doesn't read the news. I just did a brief search through MSNBC (primarily to find more on this story) and found a truly surprising number of recent cases where infants and young children had drowned in bathtubs; in several of those cases the parent had been charged with murder. I'd read them at the time but somehow hadn't strung them together 'til seeing them all at once.
 
DigitalDave said:
Sounds like they didn't have much of a mother in the first place. I'm sure grandma would step up to take care of them, she seemed like she knew the mother was dangerous to her kids.
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This is ridiculous.

Do we have to act out in irrational state sponsored vengeance at every sign of mild negligence? To HURT society like this, by robbing these children of their mother, is not only stupid, it's plain evil. It's a stupid, senseless bearocracy.
 
DigitalDave said:
I know this from lifeguarding:

You can drown in one-inch of water. It doesn't matter how high the water is, it matters only that there is enough water to enter the lungs.
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Why are you expecting her to be an expert on water drownings?

I think you were the only person even on the board who even knew that. If you had told me it before, without the circumstance, I would've considered the concept ridiculous.
 
Watermark said:
Why are you expecting her to be an expert on water drownings?

I think you were the only person even on the board who even knew that. If you had told me it before, without the circumstance, I would've considered the concept ridiculous.
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I knew it, though my memory suggested it was more like 2 - 3 inches of water.
 
Our societies "lock them up and throw away the key" approach to solving every problem in society just really annoys me. Look, we already keep more people in prison than any other nation in the world.

To throw another person in just "for good measure", and because you feel it is appropriate, is stupid justification. Sentences in the US are 6 times longer than in Europe. Think about that. And our crime level is higher. Increasing sentences to ridiculous levels does just about nothing to reduce crime, because it is not fear of the sentence that keeps a criminal from going and committing a crime. A criminal commits a crime because they don't think they'll get caught. Maybe, instead of spending billions and billions of years keeping everyone in prison for life terms, we should spend that money on prevention?

And the thing about it is, these sentences just keep on inflating and inflating. Increasing sentences, after all, is the only way to "crack down" on crime. Liberals aren't elected if they propose to reduce sentences and try some other way to actually reduce crime. Conservatives, whenever they are elected, will always increase sentences, and since increasing sentences does no good, and people see no change, they simply elect more conservatives, who increase sentences again, which does no good... it's a goddamn spiral. I can only see it stopping whenever a majority of society has their lives irreperably damaged from ridiculous sentencing laws.

We send drug dealers to prison, and we give them no options from there. We tell them they're shit and they'll never be anything in life. They get consolation from their prisonmates, and they come out with an even greater disrespect for society, and with a lot more knowledge on how to deal drugs. And we act SURPRISED whenever they do it again. We've completely and totally abandoned the concept of trying to reform prisoners, and that's a crime to society.

As for this woman, what do you think would be the most effective solution to keep her from being a negligent parent again? Do you think it may be counceling, maybe she should be required to take parenting classes? Or do you think we should just throw her in prison for 10 years? What good would that do, besides drain the state coffers a million dollars?
 
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Watermark said:
Our societies "lock them up and throw away the key" approach to solving every problem in society just really annoys me. Look, we already keep more people in prison than any other nation in the world.

To throw another person in just "for good measure", and because you feel it is appropriate, is stupid justification. Sentences in the US are 6 times longer than in Europe. Think about that. And our crime level is higher. Increasing sentences to ridiculous levels does just about nothing to reduce crime, because it is not fear of the sentence that keeps a criminal from going and committing a crime. A criminal commits a crime because they don't think they'll get caught. Maybe, instead of spending billions and billions of years keeping everyone in prison for life terms, we should spend that money on prevention?

And the thing about it is, these sentences just keep on inflating and inflating. Increasing sentences, after all, is the only way to "crack down" on crime. Liberals aren't elected if they propose to reduce sentences and try some other way to actually reduce crime. Conservatives, whenever they are elected, will always increase sentences, and since increasing sentences does no good, and people see no change, they simply elect more conservatives, who increase sentences again, which does no good... it's a goddamn spiral. I can only see it stopping whenever a majority of society has their lives irreperably damaged from ridiculous sentencing laws.

We send drug dealers to prison, and we give them no options from there. We tell them they're shit and they'll never be anything in life. They get consolation from their prisonmates, and they come out with an even greater disrespect for society, and with a lot more knowledge on how to deal drugs. And we act SURPRISED whenever they do it again. We've completely and totally abandoned the concept of trying to reform prisoners, and that's a crime to society.

As for this woman, what do you think would be the most effective solution to keep her from being a negligent parent again? Do you think it may be counceling, maybe she should be required to take parenting classes? Or do you think we should just throw her in prison for 10 years? What good would that do, besides drain the state coffers a million dollars?
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Actually Watermark you made me THINK about what I think would be best and you are right Jail is NOT the answer. Instead for the next 3 years she should teach the dangers of not paying attention to your kids by recounting this story in its entirety to new and soon to be parents. I think that it would do her some good and it would educate parents about keeping an eye on their young children all the time. Especially when they are in the tub or around a pool etc.
 
Watermark said:
This is ridiculous.

Do we have to act out in irrational state sponsored vengeance at every sign of mild negligence? To HURT society like this, by robbing these children of their mother, is not only stupid, it's plain evil. It's a stupid, senseless bearocracy.
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'Mild' negligence my ass. Who's robbing who, the mother just robbed those children of their sister. If she is even remotely remorseful, she's going to be in emotional shock, probably suicidal.
 
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