Origin of Life

Cypress said:
We are not going to find any new, naturally occurring elements in any measurable quantity.

Other than hydrogen, helium, lithium, all naturally-occurring elements are created in stellar nuclear fusion or super novas, and we have an extremely good handle on it from both experimental observation and from modeling..
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maybe there are other sub atomics that make atom different ? is that any crazier than some DNA replacement ?

I do not know anything about chi life force and cannot say anything intelligent about it
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if you get bored you should look into it, start with chi
 
Celticguy said:
maybe there are other sub atomics that make atom different ? is that any crazier than some DNA replacement ?



if you get bored you should look into it, start with chi
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Any discussion about extraterrestrial life is way out in left field, as is the idea to think about the possibility on non-DNA based life.

The reason we aren't going to find anymore naturally occurring elements is because we have have an entire cosmos telling us we got the periodic table right.

200 years of experimental observation on Earth as well as emission spectra of stars, planets, nebula, interstellar gas reveals that we have the naturally-occurring elements of the periodic table dialed in.

It is reasonable to assume we may find additional exotic subatomic particles, aka dark matter. Maybe something even more fundamental than quarks and leptons.

If so, that might effect our understanding of particle physics, but it will not change the chemistry of naturally occurring elements of the periodic table.

DNA is different.

We do not have an entire cosmos telling us about DNA.

We have only ever seen DNA once - on earth.

Not only that, but based on available data, the appearance of DNA on Earth was a unique event - it only happened once, approximately 3.8 billion years ago. All life today is the genetic legacy of those first single celled archae and cyanobacteria. There were not multiple cases of multiple lines of life emerging through Earth history. All genetic information goes back to the first primitive cells.

That is why we might have to prepare ourselves to look for life that is radically different from our genetic heritage.
 
QUOTE=Cypress;4857694] That is why we might have to prepare ourselves to look for life that is different from our genetic heritage.[/QUOTE]

Excellent! You prepare for that, Cypress, and I'll prepare my dog's breakfast.
Then we'll let her decide who better spent his time, OK?:)
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Excellent! You prepare for that, Cypress, and I'll prepare my dog's breakfast.
Then we'll let her decide who better spent his time, OK?:)
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I get it, you don't like it when I talk about science, history, or religion.

If you want to talk about dog food, start a thread and I will chime in.
 
Cypress said:
Any discussion about extraterrestrial life is way out in left field, as is the idea to think about the possibility on non-DNA based life.

The reason we aren't going to find anymore naturally occurring elements is because we have have an entire cosmos telling us we got the periodic table right.

200 years of experimental observation on Earth as well as emission spectra of stars, planets, nebula, interstellar gas reveals that we have the naturally-occurring elements of the periodic table dialed in.

It is reasonable to assume we may find additional exotic subatomic particles, aka dark matter. Maybe something even more fundamental than quarks and leptons.

If so, that might effect our understanding of particle physics, but it will not change the chemistry of naturally occurring elements of the periodic table.

DNA is different.

We do not have an entire cosmos telling us about DNA.

We have only ever seen DNA once - on earth.

Not only that, but based on available data, the appearance of DNA on Earth was a unique event - it only happened once, approximately 3.8 billion years ago. All life today is the genetic legacy of those first single celled archae and cyanobacteria. There were not multiple cases of multiple lines of life emerging through Earth history. All genetic information goes back to the first primitive cells.

That is why we might have to prepare ourselves to look for life that is radically different from our genetic heritage.
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These researchers claim, contrary to popular opinion, that nucleic acids are not the only way to store and transmit genetic information.

"DNA is only one among millions of possible genetic molecules"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191111084915.htm
 
I'm going with door #1. I am quite confident that various aspects of the process will become known little by little over time as has been happening for quite a long time already. But ultimately there will be a black box sort of step that simply cant be explained.
At that point, God's finger stirring the mud will be as close as we ever get.

Some people say a man is made out of mud
A poor man's made out of muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
 
Celticguy said:
I'm going with door #1. I am quite confident that various aspects of the process will become known little by little over time as has been happening for quite a long time already. But ultimately there will be a black box sort of step that simply cant be explained.
At that point, God's finger stirring the mud will be as close as we ever get.

Some people say a man is made out of mud
A poor man's made out of muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
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I have my doubts that we will ever truly know how a bunch of inert chemicals self-organized into infinitely complex cellular life.

I have listened to lot of molecular biologists explain genetics and cell function. But the explanations are all very mechanistic, and there doesn't seem to be an underlying understanding of why and how this happened.
 
Defender of Honor said:
All matter is a reaction of the Big Bang!
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No, only hydrogen, helium, and lithium were created as a result of the big bang.

Carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, all the metals, all the other elements were created long after the Big Bang in high mass stars and diffused into the cosmos when they went super nova.
 
Cypress said:
No, only hydrogen, helium, and lithium were created as a result of the big bang.

Carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, all the metals, all the other elements were created long after the Big Bang in high mass stars and diffused into the cosmos when they went super nova.
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My point is the universe was without matter before the big bang! Which means life was only spiritual!
So what happened in the Spirit family to cause the Big Bang?
 
Cypress said:
I have my doubts that we will ever truly know how a bunch of inert chemicals self-organized into infinitely complex cellular life.

I have listened to lot of molecular biologists explain genetics and cell function. But the explanations are all very mechanistic, and there doesn't seem to be an underlying understanding of why and how this happened.
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Well those guys are scientists and they dont see door #1 as being an option. So they keep trying to look for what can sort of fit into the constructs that they know.
And they have chipped away at particular facets of the big picture and will continue to do so.
Its what they do, who they are, and thats good. They may not ever get down to the bottom of it but imagine all the stuff that they DO figure out and what that can do. Maybe we get a cure to cancer, continuing to dig matters.
 
Celticguy said:
Well those guys are scientists and they dont see door #1 as being an option. So they keep trying to look for what can sort of fit into the constructs that they know.
And they have chipped away at particular facets of the big picture and will continue to do so.
Its what they do, who they are, and thats good. They may not ever get down to the bottom of it but imagine all the stuff that they DO figure out and what that can do. Maybe we get a cure to cancer, continuing to dig matters.
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I think scientists should be trained with more philosophical education. Einstein understood this.

Since scientists generally lack a philosophical background they sometimes aren't clear on what actually counts as an explanation.

They have done a great job understanding how gene coding sections of DNA are transcribed by RNA and then translated into proteins.

That is knowledge. A very mechanistic kind of knowledge. But its not actually a profound understanding of the nature and origin of life itself.
 
Cypress said:
I think scientists should be trained with more philosophical education. Einstein understood this.

Since scientists generally lack a philosophical background they sometimes aren't clear on what actually counts as an explanation.

They have done a great job understanding how gene coding sections of DNA are transcribed by RNA and then translated into proteins.

That is knowledge. A very mechanistic kind of knowledge. But its not actually a profound understanding of the nature and origin of life itself.
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yeah, they absolutely should.
Sadly when this became a team competition it turned to shit.
 
Celticguy said:
yeah, they absolutely should.
Sadly when this became a team competition it turned to shit.
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The concept of a war between science and religion is mostly an invention of 20th century American evangelical Protestantism.

There are very few scientists who are committed to undermining religious belief. For the most part, they are just using the principles of inductive logic to understand how natural systems work.

I do think scientists could be more philosophically trained, because that would give them better perspective into the logic of their theories.

The war between science and religion makes for good press, and the foot soldiers generally fall into two camps:

On the one hand, religious fundamentalists who actually have no training in theology and religious philosophy.

And on the other hand, irreligious agnostics who tend to not even be actual trained research scientists.
 
Cypress said:
The concept of a war between science and religion is mostly an invention of 20th century American evangelical Protestantism.

There are very few scientists who are committed to undermining religious belief. For the most part, they are just using the principles of inductive logic to understand how natural systems work.

I do think scientists could be more philosophically trained, because that would give them better perspective into the logic of their theories.

The war between science and religion makes for good press, and the foot soldiers generally fall into two camps:

On the one hand, religious fundamentalists who actually have no training in theology and religious philosophy.

And on the other hand, irreligious agnostics who tend to not even be actual trained research scientists.
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its fair to say most on Team Science are not active in pursuing their side (unless they are not scientists).
But there is still a bias however slightly manifested.

Best if both sides could come to understand that there really isnt anything to take sides over.
 
I love the concept of Panspermia. It would even make Star Trek (with all aliens looking pretty much human, two legs, face on top of neck/torso, two arms, etc.) make sense as nearly all life would have the same origin.
 
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