Our Fine-Tuned Universe: Accident or Design?

I'm going to play "atheist's advocate" and disagree somewhat with your sentiment.

1. There is no such thing as "scientific evidence"; there is only "evidence."
2. There is always, everywhere, exactly as much precision as one will measure.
3. I still haven't observed any artificial worlds
IBDaMann:

You're in error. There's even a definition for it.

"Scientific evidence means controlled clinical trials that either directly or indirectly demonstrate the effect of the intervention on health outcomes."
 
domer76:

There is no such thing as an "omni-everything CHRISTIAN god," for starters. And most of the "needless suffering" is caused by man's inhumanity to man. Compound that with Adamic sin that resulted when our first parents, Adam and Eve, rebelled against the Almighty because they thought they knew best.
So, your creator isn’t the Christian god. So, which one is he, Jethro?

And, dumbfuck, needless suffering doesn’t pertain to just humans. But, if it did, explain things like childhood leukemia to all of us.
 
Precision includes error; the error is defined by the precision.
IBDaMann:

Now you're quibbling. Below is one definition of precision.

"1 : the quality or state of being precise: EXACTNESS"


Below is a scientific definition of precision.

"Precision is also the level of agreement of a particular measurement with itself when it is repeated."
 
Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth.
Nobody has ever discovered any elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements. All the elements were discovered elsewhere.
2. The Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth happens to be, by sheer coincidence, the same Periodic Table of the Elements for all the other planets, as well as for the sun, the moon, and southern California.
3. If you spend one second listing off the first 60 elements of the Periodic Table of the Elements, it will constitute one minute of your life that you'll never get back.
IBDaMann:

You are putting the wrong meaning into what I wrote in my OP. I simply meant to state that the first 60 discovered elements of plant earth are on the Periodic Table of the Elements, not that they were taken from there. The Periodic Table was only created AFTER the first 60 elements were discovered.
 
God is a God. All powerful. HE, per Christians, was hands-on in sub-atomic details. Why didn't he, an all-knowing, omniscient being, design things so we get cancer FROM BEING OUTSIDE?

Is planting and harvesting crops "tanning"? Is tending to your sheep "tanning"? Is traveling a long distance "tanning"?
consider it a test.

even in hardship, we are not to turn to human on human predation.

can you pass it?
 
Accident:
"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results."
Poor definition and inaccurate. An accident can have very fortunate results, and if those results are the saving of a life, it becomes an essential event.
IBDaMann:

I suggest you lodge a complaint with the people at Websters New Collegiate Dictionary from which I got the definition. Let us know how that works out for you.
 
ZenMode:

Only if we over expose ourselves to it. Without the sun, life could not exist.
Not just overexposure, but overexposure when the UV levels are high. Given that God had every option at his disposal, are you saying that he couldn’t have designed a light source that didn’t produce UV or designed humans with skin that was highly resistant to UV?
 
...


Why is it so important to you to insist that Christians universally must be accountable for reading the Old Testament in a very literal way, and never have diversity in opinion about what the Old Testament means or how to interpret it?
yeah. that's your territory.
 
I think of this as looking at the issue backwards. If any of the core numbers didn't line up there would be nothing to observe their lack of "precision". If anything the numbers are what they are and we are the product of those numbers. It is not like human intellect would exist in some other universe in which the fine tuning constant or whatever we wish to be impressed by was different than it is such that we can say "Gosh, aren't we lucky we live in this universe?"

This is kind of the Anthropic Prinicple.

For all we know there have been infinite universes which failed because the numbers didn't line up correctly. That would hardly make one in which the numbers randomly DID line up correctly somewhat less astounding and more like just something that was bound to happen by pure chance.
Obtenebrator:

Your speculations "for all we know" is a non-response to the direct questions asked in my OP.
 
They hid and Yahweh, the former storm god, said “where are you?” Then the storm god asks them if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. He wasn’t aware of that, either.
Domer76:

Although there are things Almighty God Jehovah chooses not to know, when he asked Adam and Eve "Where are you?" as they hid among the trees in the Garden of Eden, he knew where they were. The question was intended to get Adam and Eve to stop hiding.

Genesis 3:8

Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden.

Genesis 3:9

And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?”

Genesis 3:10

Finally he said: “I heard your voice in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.”

Genesis 3:11

At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?


The fact that they ate of the forbidden fruit was clear to the Almighty. He knew by their behavior that they had eaten it. Thus, his question to them was rhethorical.
 
Not just overexposure, but overexposure when the UV levels are high. Given that God had every option at his disposal, are you saying that he couldn’t have designed a light source that didn’t produce UV or designed humans with skin that was highly resistant to UV?
ZenMode:

Humans were created perfect. Adam and Eve rebelled against Almighty God by eating of the forbidden fruit. Their rebellion has resulted in imperfection, sin, and death to all of humanity.

Similarly, people have been told repeatedly to not over-expose themselves to sunlight, but they insist on rebelling. There are consequences for rebelling against good advice. Jehovah is not going to protect people from themselves.
 
ZenMode:

Humans were created perfect. Adam and Eve rebelled against Almighty God by eating of the forbidden fruit. Their rebellion has resulted in imperfection, sin, and death to all of humanity.

Similarly, people have been told repeatedly to not over-expose themselves to sunlight, but they insist on rebelling. There are consequences for rebelling against good advice. Jehovah is not going to protect people from themselves.
Are you saying that the fundamental molecular structure of the sun, or man’s skin, changed when Adam ate the apple?
 
IBDaMann: You're in error. There's even a definition for it.
You were gullible when you read that and believed it. I highly recommend that you learn what science is.

Look, I'm not your enemy. In fact, I'm going to be your best friend. I'm going to teach you a few things to give you a much more solid basis for presenting your argument. Your current line of reasoning is so riddled with errors and contradictions that you lose before you get out of the starting gate. Let's get you off and running.

First, science is nothing more than a collection of falsifiable models. You have fallen for the phony notion that the word "science" or "scientific" is some sort of dog-whistle that elevates whatever subjective term it modifies to the status of "objective truth that must be accepted as presented." For example, Christians use the words "Holy" and "Sacred" in the same manner. If a Christian were to quote from the Q'ran, he would say "This is what the Q'ran says ..." but if he quotes from the Bible, he claims to be quoting holy scripture. If a Christian were presented a robe supposedly worn by Mohammed, he would refer to it an ancient robe, but he would refer to the supposed burial robe of Jesus as the sacred shroud. The adjectives are intended to express that the audience is to simply accept something subjective as objective truth without the speaker having to provide any support. Ergo, when you say "scientific evidence", your audience understands that you have no intention of supporting your subjective claim, because you cannot, because you did not demand that the person making the claim to you support his claim, i.e. your audience understands that you are simply regurgitating without question what you have been told to preach by others.

This does not make you credible. In fact, it gets you ignored ... but not by me; I'll listen to you.

Second, "evidence" is entirely subjective on multiple levels. What even constitutes evidence in the first place is highly subjective, but what any accepted evidence means is also entirely subjective. This is why in a court of law, both sides submit what they consider to be "evidence" and both sides move to get what the other side has submitted thrown out as not being "evidence." Whatver remains as "evidence" is left for a jury to subjectively interpret as they will. You, however, tried pretending that "evidence" you were submitting had already been accepted by your audience, which it had not. You tried to accomplish by using the first point of referring to it as "scientific." Foul! Your "evidence" is subsequently tossed and is not admissible. Sorry.

Third, you are trying to get "research" classified as "science". Clinical trials and demonstrations are performed while conducting research. Unless new science is created resulting from this research, science doesn't enter the picture.

Thus, it is entirely absurd to refer to research as "scientific evidence." It prevents your argument from even getting out of the starting gate.

My recommendation to you is two-fold:
1. Read Darwin's On the Origin of Species and know what it reads, so you don't make a long chain of erroneous assertions about what it supposedly says.
2. Divorce your argument from any need to link it to science; you can't. Darwin's theory of evolution is not science, and your apparent need to show that it isn't is very much misplaced.

The above will make your case much more solid.
 
So, your creator isn’t the Christian god. So, which one is he, Jethro?

And, dumbfuck, needless suffering doesn’t pertain to just humans. But, if it did, explain things like childhood leukemia to all of us.
You are now on my "Ignore" list where you will remain forever. You have no respect for other people.
 
IBDaMann: Now you're quibbling. Below is one definition of precision.
Alter2Ego, I am not quibbling. If you wish to have any hope with the technical community, e.g. scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc.. you need to learn the difference between "precision" and "accuracy." If you don't understand those concepts, and if you try to use them interchangeably, your argument will be summarily dismissed and you will be ignored ... except for me; I'll still help you. Something that is highly precise can be extremely inaccurate, and vice-versa. If you argue that God created something that is very precise, you nonetheless leave yourself wide open to the question of why God was so inaccurate. You might want to approach your argument in such a way that you nip that problem in the bud.

Choose your wording carefully. Don't rely on dictionaries. They do not define words; they merely provide you with common usage, correct or otherwise.

Below is a scientific definition of precision.
There is no such thing as a "scientific definition." The meaning of "precision" is a mathematical one, and it refers to the number of significant digits in a measurement or computation. "Accuracy" refers to how close a measurement or computation is to objective reality.

If you are wise, you will use these definitions and ignore other crap you happen to find on the internet.
 
IBDaMann: I suggest you lodge a complaint with the people at Websters New Collegiate Dictionary from which I got the definition. Let us know how that works out for you.
Alter2Ego, I suggest you cease being entirely gullible. You'll see things more clearly in life if you never allow others to do your thinking for you.

I'm here for you.
 
IBDaMann:

You are putting the wrong meaning into what I wrote in my OP. I simply meant to state that the first 60 discovered elements of plant earth are on the Periodic Table of the Elements, not that they were taken from there. The Periodic Table was only created AFTER the first 60 elements were discovered.
Given this, does this lead to some sort of conclusion?
 
Alter2Ego, I am not quibbling. If you wish to have any hope with the technical community, e.g. scientists, engineers, mathematicians, etc.. you need to learn the difference between "precision" and "accuracy." If you don't understand those concepts, and if you try to use them interchangeably, your argument will be summarily dismissed and you will be ignored ... except for me; I'll still help you. Something that is highly precise can be extremely inaccurate, and vice-versa. If you argue that God created something that is very precise, you nonetheless leave yourself wide open to the question of why God was so inaccurate. You might want to approach your argument in such a way that you nip that problem in the bud.

Choose your wording carefully. Don't rely on dictionaries. They do not define words; they merely provide you with common usage, correct or otherwise.


There is no such thing as a "scientific definition." The meaning of "precision" is a mathematical one, and it refers to the number of significant digits in a measurement or computation. "Accuracy" refers to how close a measurement or computation is to objective reality.

If you are wise, you will use these definitions and ignore other crap you happen to find on the internet.
IBDaMann:

I know the difference between precision and accuracy. You, apparently, do not, which is why you're unable to overcome the arguments in my OP and have opted instead to nitpick on my definitions, despite the fact I quoted the definitions from common English dictionaries. So don't waste my time showing up here attempting to take the higher ground by pretending you know anything.


There is no such thing as a "scientific definition." The meaning of "precision" is a mathematical one, and it refers to the number of significant digits in a measurement or computation. "Accuracy" refers to how close a measurement or computation is to objective reality.

If you are wise, you will use these definitions and ignore other crap you happen to find on the internet.

You said that already, and I gave you the meaning from a reliable source. At this point, all you're giving me is wash, rinse, and repeat. You need to stop posting the same tripe after you've been effectively debunked.
 
Alter2Ego, I suggest you cease being entirely gullible. You'll see things more clearly in life if you never allow others to do your thinking for you.

I'm here for you.
IBDaMann:

I was just about to say the same thing to you. Your posts are, franky, pathetic and are failed attempts at making yourself appear to be smart. Nothing you've posted thus far has answered any of the questions in my OP.
 
Back
Top