Pakistan

uscitizen said:
What if those in the North do win ? If we did not keep messing with them so much they would not mess with us.
like I say it is their country not ours.


Remember who started the Taliban SF ?
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The Taliban originated in northern Pakistan, who "messed with them" in Afghanistan that prompted them to go north and take over?
Nobody.

Yes we would have less problems with less aggresive foreign policy, but it's naive to not expect that a nuclear Pakistan in hardline islamic hands might not sell off or give out nuclear tech and knowhow to terrorist groups that will hate us regardless.
 
TheDanold said:
The Taliban originated in northern Pakistan, who "messed with them" in Afghanistan that prompted them to go north and take over?
Nobody.

Yes we would have less problems with less aggresive foreign policy, but it's naive to not expect that a nuclear Pakistan in hardline islamic hands might not sell off or give out nuclear tech and knowhow to terrorist groups that will hate us regardless.
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I thought we were messing with them in Afganistan....
 
uscitizen said:
why we did so was a reason not very unlike your current argument SF.
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yes, it was in our national interests to do so at the time. We did not want the USSR to expand into the mideast anymore than it already had. Just as we most certainly do not want the extreme Islamists to take over any more than they already have.

Nor do we want another dictator setting up. Which is WHY I posted the article that so many of you have chosen not to read. It covers many of the pros and cons of both sides. It presents the catch 22.... we need/want to go after Al Queda and other extremists in the north of Pakistan, but to do so would be seen as support for Musharraf and his actions.

Which brings us back to the original reason I posted this.... how do we draw Bhutto and her group into this so that it is seen more as support for Pakistan in general rather than Musharraf in particular. Is there a way to bring her group into the mix in a way that will ensure an election and return to democracy while at the same time giving us the opportunity to go after Al Queda (and very likely Osama) in northern Pakistan?
 
Which brings us back to the original reason I posted this.... how do we draw Bhutto and her group into this so that it is seen more as support for Pakistan in general rather than Musharraf in particular. Is there a way to bring her group into the mix in a way that will ensure an election and return to democracy while at the same time giving us the opportunity to go after Al Queda (and very likely Osama) in northern Pakistan?
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no.
 
uscitizen said:
I thought we were messing with them in Afganistan....
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Well, to be certain, we helped train many of the leaders that we are now fighting. We trained them to fight the Soviets and then walked away after the Soviets withdrew. Leaving them with a torn country with a power vaccume. That was obviously eventually filled by what we now know as the Taliban.
 
uscitizen said:
Which brings us back to the original reason I posted this.... how do we draw Bhutto and her group into this so that it is seen more as support for Pakistan in general rather than Musharraf in particular. Is there a way to bring her group into the mix in a way that will ensure an election and return to democracy while at the same time giving us the opportunity to go after Al Queda (and very likely Osama) in northern Pakistan?
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no.
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Why not? Do you think that Bhutto would not work with us under any circumstance? Or is it that you think Bhutto and Musharraf would never work together? Because as much as they likely dislike each other, neither wants the Islamic extemists to take over... because that would be an end to both of their goals/plans.
 
Superfreak said:
Why not? Do you think that Bhutto would not work with us under any circumstance? Or is it that you think Bhutto and Musharraf would never work together? Because as much as they likely dislike each other, neither wants the Islamic extemists to take over... because that would be an end to both of their goals/plans.
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Bhutto is seen largely as corrupt, they got rid of that family repeatedly because of the corruption they brought to the government. It would be seen as simply adding to the problem by the populace in Pakistan.
 
Damocles said:
Bhutto is seen largely as corrupt, they got rid of that family repeatedly because of the corruption they brought to the government. It would be seen as simply adding to the problem by the populace in Pakistan.
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Ok, then WHO? Is there no one the populace wants? I stated Bhutto because she is the only other leader that I am personally aware of that could rival Musharraf. Is there another that the populace would prefer? If so, then substite him/her for Bhutto.
 
I do not know who they would prefer. They distrust pretty much anybody that would work with us, and historically they would be very right to distrust any such group and/or leader.

I was simply pointing out that the Bhutto family led there before and were removed and regained power repeatedly and are seen as very corrupt. It may be that working with them and Musharraf at the same time will be the only choice.
 
I suspect any leadership that would go after the terrorist groups in the north will be unpopular with the populace.
 
Damocles said:
I do not know who they would prefer. They distrust pretty much anybody that would work with us, and historically they would be very right to distrust any such group and/or leader.

I was simply pointing out that the Bhutto family led there before and were removed and regained power repeatedly and are seen as very corrupt. It may be that working with them and Musharraf at the same time will be the only choice.
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I guess the question then becomes, would the populace prefer working with us or taking the chance that the extremists take over.
 
Superfreak said:
A very good question. I do not know the answer to that. I was under the assumption that the majority in the south wanted a democracy vs a theocracy. But maybe that is a bad assumption.
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I too am unsure of what would be a majority opinion. That is why I suspect that any action against the terrorist groups may be unpopular.
 
Damocles said:
I too am unsure of what would be a majority opinion. That is why I suspect that any action against the terrorist groups may be unpopular.
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I guess that is one question we would need to know the answer to before proceeding in any direction on this. If the south is more of the mindset of the Turks idea of democracy, then they would likely prefer our assistance to the possibility of the extremists taking over. On the other hand, if they see those in the north as revolutionaries and prefer their leadership to that of Musharraf and Bhutto etc... then it would be a huge mistake for us to intercede.

Maybe we should offer Musharraf and senior army leaders a couple billion a piece to destroy their nukes and then come live in the US. India would probably toss in a little coin for them too.
 
Superfreak said:
But you did not address my point. Not in the least.

1) These terrorists in the north are the same group hitting us in Afghanistan
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Right-wingers never get it.

AFGHANIS are "hitting us" .. just like in Iraq were IRAQIS are hitting us.

Afghanis support the Taliban .. which by the way, exists because we helped create it.

2) I stated clearly that we be very clear publically that we expected a return to democracy
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Pakistanis nor Afghanis don't give a rats ass about what we expect. Their countries belong to them.

3) I also stated that we should attempt to gain UN involvement as well
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The UN, NATO, and most nations of the world are giving the US the finger because we created this mess. Funny how the right-wing which has forever denigrated the UN, NATO, and the rest of the world .. now wants the rest of the planet to come rushing to our aid to pull our ass out of the fire.

Pakistan is blow-back for our botched attempt at empire-building which has proven to be the worst strategic failure in our history.

Musharref will join the other world leaders who got the boot up their ass by their own people.

Pakistan's nukes will now be a serious problem for the neocons and Israel.
 
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