Pakistan

[blackascoal]

Except Iraq and pakistan are not the same. If the fight is against those we are already fighting in Afghanistan AND Pakistan has nuclear weapons, why the hell would we stand by and do nothing if there is a chance the islamist factions in the north could gain control?

Try to put a little thought into this. I promise... it won't kill you.

Perhaps you should put a bit of thought into the question of if we can't defeat a small Iraq and a tiny Afghanistan, nations aremed with muskets, sling-shots, and improvished weapons .. in a timeframe that lasted longer than WWII .. what in the hell do you think we are going to do to Pakistan which has nukes?

Are you seriouisly suggesting starting ANOTHER war on top of two already failed wars and while also trying to start a war with Iran????

Thought????

 

[uscitizen]

Yep BAC also consider that a drawdown of troops in Iraq is required because of troops not being available, not because it is more secure. Army recruitments are at the lowest level since beginning the all volunteer Army.

 

[Cypress]

I guess that is one question we would need to know the answer to before proceeding in any direction on this. If the south is more of the mindset of the Turks idea of democracy, then they would likely prefer our assistance to the possibility of the extremists taking over. On the other hand, if they see those in the north as revolutionaries and prefer their leadership to that of Musharraf and Bhutto etc... then it would be a huge mistake for us to intercede.

You're employing the mindset of the classic 19th century imperialist. You're focusing on how WE can "fix" this situation. The great white man to the resucue. White man's burden. Whatever they called it. What you need to focus on, are the facts on the ground. Bush has botched this war on terror so badly, I doubt we have any serious influence there at all. You need to understand that the vast majority of pakistanis feel dissapointment and anger at us. For decades of supporting a military dictatorship, and followed by Bush's weak response to this latest military coup. They don't see the military aid we send them being used for counter terrorism. In their minds, the military aid we send pakistan is used to support and prop up a military dictatorship. While we hypocriticallly blab on about promoting democracy.

In short, I understand you think this is something we can fix, and in your desire to do so, you wonder if we can find allies in pakistan. Pakistan is far more complex than any of us understand. Not in five mintues on a thread, not in five months on a thread. This isn't a problem we can neccessarily "fix". We can put band aids on it. We can continue to support the military dictatorship. We can go into crises management mode. But you need to understand, that these are trivial short term, and meaningless "solutions".

The only realistic long term solution, is to disengage and stop meddling with other countries and supporting dictators.

Maybe we should offer Musharraf and senior army leaders a couple billion a piece to destroy their nukes and then come live in the US. India would probably toss in a little coin for them too.

That'll never happen.

 

[uscitizen]

Maybe we should offer Musharraf and senior army leaders a couple billion a piece to destroy their nukes and then come live in the US. India would probably toss in a little coin for them too.
//

Didn't we trun down that offer from Sadam ?

 

[Litmus]

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YzU2MTVlN2E2MmJmOWRjYjVkMjQ4ODI5NWRjZTJmOTU=

I know this is a long read and it is not a bush bashing article and thus expect only a handful will actually read it, but it brings up numerous possibilities of what "might" happen. It also admits that most of the experts are unsure of which way Pakistan will go.

My question to those who read the article is this...

What should the US do in this situation (in YOUR opinion)??

We obviously do not want to support a country that steps away from democracy, yet at the same time we do want to fight the islamic extremists that are hiding in the north of Pakistan (and where Osama is most likely to be at this time). So again, how should we proceed?

Personally, if we are asked to support the military and Musharraf in fighting the terrorists in the north, I think we should do so to the extent we can. At the same time we need to make it very clear publically that we expect a return to democracy upon the conclusion. We should also seek to garner UN forces for the effort as we are obviously stretched pretty thin with Iraq and Afghanistan.

Your thoughts, critiques etc.....?

we're not gonna do shit. Musharaff is "our guy".

Is china a democracy? Just wondering. Just wondering how your head is so far up it.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Right-wingers never get it.

AFGHANIS are "hitting us" .. just like in Iraq were IRAQIS are hitting us.

Afghanis support the Taliban .. which by the way, exists because we helped create it.



Pakistanis nor Afghanis don't give a rats ass about what we expect. Their countries belong to them.



The UN, NATO, and most nations of the world are giving the US the finger because we created this mess. Funny how the right-wing which has forever denigrated the UN, NATO, and the rest of the world .. now wants the rest of the planet to come rushing to our aid to pull our ass out of the fire.

Pakistan is blow-back for our botched attempt at empire-building which has proven to be the worst strategic failure in our history.

Musharref will join the other world leaders who got the boot up their ass by their own people.

Pakistan's nukes will now be a serious problem for the neocons and Israel.

Wow, what a crock of shit you have managed to pull from your ass. Yes, those that we are fighting come from a wide variety of countries in the middle east. Thank you for that captain obvious.

We have already covered the fact that the US played a part in creating the taliban to begin with, but like many others you will probably ignore the WHY part of the equation.

I personally could care less if the UN gets involved, but threw that out as an option because so many people like you seem to think they are relevant and would thus get more people on board with making sure the extremists did not get control of Pakistans nukes.

And yes, Pakistans nukes are indeed the problem, which is why we need to figure out a way to do something before that problem escalates. Which if you had been paying the least bit attention to this thread, you would realize was the whole point of this thread. It was started to create a discussion on HOW do we go about doing this.

But like others, you decided to throw your bullshit around without bothering to even read the article or the other posts on this thread.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Perhaps you should put a bit of thought into the question of if we can't defeat a small Iraq and a tiny Afghanistan, nations aremed with muskets, sling-shots, and improvished weapons .. in a timeframe that lasted longer than WWII .. what in the hell do you think we are going to do to Pakistan which has nukes?

Are you seriouisly suggesting starting ANOTHER war on top of two already failed wars and while also trying to start a war with Iran????

Thought????

Perhaps if you bothered to read what has already been posted on this thread you wouldn't be wasting our time with your mindless dribble.

1) If you think that we are up against sling-shots and muskets in Iraq then you are an idiot.

2) Yes, it has certainly lasted longer than our time in WWII. But you seem to forget that in WWII we did not fight with one hand tied behind our back and the second hand cut off.

3) I never suggested starting a war WITH Pakistan, that is simply your feeble attempt at a strawman. What I did do is ask others for their thoughts on how to handle a potential nightmare of a situation. On the one hand you have Musharraf who has now tossed out democracy and on the other you have a group of terrorists/revoluntiaries (depending on ones point of view) that absolutely cannot be allowed to gain control of Pakistans nukes. So the question was NOT should we start a war with Pakistan, it was how do we approach this situation? How do we ensure the extremists don't get the nukes while at the same time not supporting a move away from democracy.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Maybe we should offer Musharraf and senior army leaders a couple billion a piece to destroy their nukes and then come live in the US. India would probably toss in a little coin for them too.
//

Didn't we trun down that offer from Sadam ?

I said it sarcastically for that very reason.

I sometimes forget that I must include a " " or a "/sarcasm off" for some on this board to understand that.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

we're not gonna do shit. Musharaff is "our guy".

Is china a democracy? Just wondering. Just wondering how your head is so far up it.

I would venture to guess you are quite wrong. IF it comes down to a cival war between the extremists/revolutionaries in the north and Musharraf and the military, we will side with Musharraf and provide whatever aide we can. We cannot afford to have the extremists in control of Pakistans nukes. It is naive to think that we will do nothing.

WHAT THE FUCK does China have to do with this?

 

[uscitizen]

I said it sarcastically for that very reason.

I sometimes forget that I must include a " " or a "/sarcasm off" for some on this board to understand that.

Yeah I was hoping the righties were being sarcastic when they said we were invading Iraq because of WMD's.

Hard to tell about some people.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Yeah I was hoping the righties were being sarcastic when they said we were invading Iraq because of WMD's.

Hard to tell about some people.

So essentially, most of you on the left are not going to discuss how to approach Pakistan, but rather you will continue to make glib comments about Iraq. Gotcha.

seriously... do you think we can afford to do nothing here? While most people certainly do not support what Musharraf has done, we cannot take the chance that the extremists gain control.... or do you think we can?

 

[Cypress]

Perhaps if you bothered to read what has already been posted on this thread you wouldn't be wasting our time with your mindless dribble.

1) If you think that we are up against sling-shots and muskets in Iraq then you are an idiot.

2) Yes, it has certainly lasted longer than our time in WWII. But you seem to forget that in WWII we did not fight with one hand tied behind our back and the second hand cut off.

3) I never suggested starting a war WITH Pakistan, that is simply your feeble attempt at a strawman. What I did do is ask others for their thoughts on how to handle a potential nightmare of a situation. On the one hand you have Musharraf who has now tossed out democracy and on the other you have a group of terrorists/revoluntiaries (depending on ones point of view) that absolutely cannot be allowed to gain control of Pakistans nukes. So the question was NOT should we start a war with Pakistan, it was how do we approach this situation? How do we ensure the extremists don't get the nukes while at the same time not supporting a move away from democracy.

thoughts on how to handle a potential nightmare of a situation. On the one hand you have Musharraf who has now tossed out democracy and on the other you have a group of terrorists/revoluntiaries (depending on ones point of view) that absolutely cannot be allowed to gain control of Pakistans nukes. So the question was NOT should we start a war with Pakistan, it was how do we approach this situation?

You wanted to invade iraq because they violated 17 UN resolutions, and were thumbing their nose at us.

If that's you standard for invasion, the above case you describe sounds far more dire, and worthy of war, if possible, to keep the islamofascists from getting nukes.

 

[uscitizen]

So essentially, most of you on the left are not going to discuss how to approach Pakistan, but rather you will continue to make glib comments about Iraq. Gotcha.

seriously... do you think we can afford to do nothing here? While most people certainly do not support what Musharraf has done, we cannot take the chance that the extremists gain control.... or do you think we can?

Ignoring what I said about Pakistan ?
I said to leave em alone it is their problem.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Ignoring what I said about Pakistan ?
I said to leave em alone it is their problem.

You truly think it would not be a problem for us if the extremists in the north got a hold of Pakistans nukes?

 

[uscitizen]

You truly think it would not be a problem for us if the extremists in the north got a hold of Pakistans nukes?

No I don't think it would be a problem for us. Israel now could be another matter. But that is Israel not the USA.

I sort of expect India to weigh in soon on the Pakistan issue as well.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No I don't think it would be a problem for us. Israel now could be another matter. But that is Israel not the USA.

I sort of expect India to weigh in soon on the Pakistan issue as well.

Ok. Fair enough, it is after all just one opinion vs. another. I disagree with you on it.

you do bring up yet another potential nightmare should the extremists gain control.... India. Something tells me they would not play nicely with each other.

 

[Thorn]

Ok. Fair enough, it is after all just one opinion vs. another. I disagree with you on it.

you do bring up yet another potential nightmare should the extremists gain control.... India. Something tells me they would not play nicely with each other.

That is more certain, and more frightening because of it. A serious action against India by Pakistani extremists could be devastating for the entire region on a scale we haven't considered. That is also likely to take priority for those people above any action they may consider against the west.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That is more certain, and more frightening because of it. A serious action against India by Pakistani extremists could be devastating for the entire region on a scale we haven't considered. That is also likely to take priority for those people above any action they may consider against the west.

very true. Yet another reason I do not think we will sit on the sidelines should this escalate into a cival war.

 

[uscitizen]

very true. Yet another reason I do not think we will sit on the sidelines should this escalate into a cival war.

yeah right , like we have any history of quieting things down over there.

 

[Damocles]

Go in, destroy the nukes then get the hell back out and let them sort their own stuff out. Seriously, only handle what may be an actual issue for us.