why would the Israelis trade a known enemy (Assad) with whom they have reached a de-facto accommodation, for a mixture of rebels who have one thing in common :
a determination to wipe Israel off the map ???
Poll: 60% of Americans Opposed to Syria Attack, Just 9% Support it
- Thread starter blackascoal
- Start date
a determination to wipe Israel off the map ???
/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
thanks for the correction, all I really know is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy#Russia
"drydock base"= resupply point?
I read something about upgrading Tartus, but I guess I'm wrong on that - thanks for the info
Well, my comment was to disparage the Russian navy as being little more than floating rust and shit buckets of scrap iron. I.E. they do not have the money to maintain their navy as is, let alone use it for anything. Furthermore, even if they did (and to be clear, they DON'T), they need to access Syria via the Dardenells, controlled by NATO member Turkey.
/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
They have 3 basic fleets. The Pacific, Atlantic, and Black sea, the Black Sea fleet being their most active of the 3 (and unless they've changed it, the only one that operates a carrier). Of course they have a warm water port in the Atlantic (Kaliningrad) but the North Sea is controlled by Britain, Norway, and Germany. In effect, Russia CAN'T have a blue water navy because they have no real way to project it. The one exception is their submarine force, which (when it's working well) can control the Arctic seas and the North Pole. They're the only ones that can do this by the way. But beyond that, no. A port in Syria isn't a realistic thing for them to go to war over. Now keeping Syria as a back door into the nations of Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan....that's a different story. That would allow them to better control the Chechen situation, which is likely their goal and the reason they back a stabalizing Assad regime.
zappasguitar
Well-known member
My deepest thanks to your nephews for helping protect this country.
And I agree with you completely.
a huge help in my understanding of Russian fleets, I did know about the submarines, but no the exclusivity of the Artic Seas (ocean?).The rest is great info - thinking that Russia wants to align with Iran, also, but for their basic geo-security needs, this was a really clear.
Thanks!!
/MSG/
Uwaa OmO
The rest is great info - thinking that Russia wants to align with Iran, also, but for their basic geo-security needs, this was a really clear.
Thanks!!
No problem, glad to help.
Village Negroe
Banned
I've read this entire thread and have found it educational and entertaining. With all due respect I sincerely thank most contributors here both for or against the circumstances of WAR. Considering that WAR will NEVER end we all have to face reality. In my particular case I support the duly enfranchised powers of WAR enactment and the protections of our national interests. I'm not too naive to accept the conclusions of Darla, the resident house nigga and a few others here.
Iraq under gwb is not even close to the Syrian problem now under President Barack Hussein Obama. Apples and oranges simply do not compare in any way. Whining about disagreements in these matters doesn't get anything done. Action is the American creed and has been since our founding. I hopefully expect it to continue on solid and humanitarian grounds. Have we made mistakes? We have a population of hundreds of millions and the mistakes reflect that. Nonetheless, we have assumed the position and the responsibility of being the police of the world. Admittedly, that's a damned dangerous place to assume but it is what it is.
We have no choice but to prevail. Assuming or accepting otherwise is pure idiocy. I am in no way pro-WAR but I am a realist. We do what we can and only hope for the best. We've been very lucky in that regard so far, IMHO.
Petula
Iraq under gwb is not even close to the Syrian problem now under President Barack Hussein Obama. Apples and oranges simply do not compare in any way. Whining about disagreements in these matters doesn't get anything done. Action is the American creed and has been since our founding. I hopefully expect it to continue on solid and humanitarian grounds. Have we made mistakes? We have a population of hundreds of millions and the mistakes reflect that. Nonetheless, we have assumed the position and the responsibility of being the police of the world. Admittedly, that's a damned dangerous place to assume but it is what it is.
We have no choice but to prevail. Assuming or accepting otherwise is pure idiocy. I am in no way pro-WAR but I am a realist. We do what we can and only hope for the best. We've been very lucky in that regard so far, IMHO.
Petula
so I know Turkey is part of NATO, but has an interest in keeping the Kurds contained.
Also Ergodan, was a supporter of Assad (Muslim connection?) but his clamping down on his own protestors, might have weakened his power.
What is the Turkish/Syrian relationshio now?, and is Turkey going to back NATO ( the coming Syrian strikes), or stay neutral, or support Assad?
*picking your brain while the ppicking is good*
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Are you talking about the same Obama who massacred countless Libyans, including children?
THAT Obama?
‘Violent chaos’: Libya in deep crisis 2 years since rebels took over
excerpts
“We do not feel the taste of happiness, security and stability,” a resident of Tripoli is cited as saying by Libya Herald, “nor did we have any benefit from the government. People are now feeling insecure and live in fear because of killings that are being witnessed all over Libya.”
“I am not sure that it will be right to assume that there is a government in Libya. There is no army, no police, armed militias are in control. There is violent chaos,” Yehudit Ronen, professor of political science at Bar Ilan University, told RT.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) says a wave of assassinations has killed dozens of politicians, activists, judges and members of security agencies.
“All we hear is very troublesome, because we hear about clandestine detention centers, detention centers that are run by militias that are not accountable to anybody,” Juan Mendez, UN rapporteur on torture told RT.
Meanwhile, work at Libya's oilfields and ports have been regularly paralyzed because of sporadic strikes by security guards
"Libya has lost $1.6 billion in oil sales since July 25 until today," Oil Minister Abdelbari al-Arusi was cited by Reuters on August 16.
Libya's Prime Minister Ali Zeidan even promised to use military force to prevent striking at the country's main ports. Libya’s two main crude oil terminals have however remained shut, which means the country’s economic recovery after the 2011 unrest has been derailed.
“Libya has become AQIM’s [Al-Qaeda in the Lands of the Islamic Maghreb] headquarters,” the intelligence source was cited as saying.
Abayomi Azikiwe, editor of the Pan-Africa Newswire, predicts that the instability in the post-Gaddafi Libya will only get worse.
“This kind of revolution has been detrimental to the wellbeing of the Libyan people. What we’ve seen over the last few years is a total disruption of Libyan society. There’s no plan for the national restoration of Libya. Many of the key political players involved in an attempt to run Libya right now are divided over tribal, regional as well as political levels,” Azikiwe told RT.
“And until the general national council government there reigns in the malicious and tries to bring about some type of national reconciliation process, the economic decline and consequently the social instability will intensify.”
more
http://rt.com/news/libya-gaddafi-fall-anniversary-981/
Oh sure .. Obama has done such a marvelous job of destroying Libya .. I'm real sure he cares NOT about what a little Syrian girl has to say.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Everywhere we walk countless INNOCENT people die, including women, children, and babies.
Obama follows the Bush foreign policy to the letter, and he's every bit the warmonger that George Bush was. Any excuse he can come up with is all he needs to engage in war .. such as 'Gaddafi gave Viagra to his troops so they can wholesale rape Libyan women' .. which Susan Rice and Hillary Clinton pulled out of thier asses .. proven without a doubt to be a lie.
This nation exists in a state of perpetual for-profit war, and we have become the most dangerous nation on the planet.
You may not see, or want to see yourself as pro-war, but if you're advocating attacking Syria, pro-war is what you are indeed.
'The resident house NIGGA' ???
That was ignorant.
Cancel 2016.11
Darla
Desh just dropped the race card on Darla!
LOL This was funny Cawacko. Note how it didn't even phase me, I really didn't even notice it. Compare that to the freakouts we see from righties, or even non-righties, when it happens to them. What could account for the difference in reactions?
A clean conscience. Just my opinion!
Cancel 2020.1
Canceled
Yeah, but pull out "gal" on you, and look out!
Also, could be that cawacko was just joking. Just a little difference there.
This is BULLSHIT! Sorry, I love you, but I have to call bullshit.
President Obama makes mistakes and has not been perfect in foreign policy, but to say he has followed Bush foreign policy to the letter is outrageous.
Its disrespectful to the people of Iraq to compare anything Obama has done to what Bush did to them.
It is disrespectful to the American Military men and women to compare anything Obama has asked of them to what Bush asked of them.
Its ignorant to believe that supporting an uprising in Libya is tantamount to what Bush did in Iraq.
Its ignorant to suggest that Bush would have, even for a moment, considered the idea of not continuing to prop up Mubarik in Egypt.
Im calling out your outrageous rhetoric, you should feel free to attack and criticize the Obama Foreign Policy, I agree with much of what you will say, but don't pull bullshit out your ass and say its the same as what Bush did.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
:0) I live you too good brother .. but you really .. REALLY do not want to debate me on this.
Seriously, you don't .. a snippet of what you'd be in for ..
Whose Foreign Policy Is It?
For those with eyes to see, the daylight between the foreign policies of George W. Bush and Barack Obama has been shrinking ever since the current president took the oath of office. But last week made it official: When the story of America’s post-9/11 wars is written, historians will be obliged to assess the two administrations together, and pass judgment on the Bush-Obama era.
The death of Osama bin Laden, in a raid that operationalized Bush’s famous “dead or alive” dictum, offered the most visible proof of this continuity. But the more important evidence of the Bush-Obama convergence lay elsewhere, in developments from last week that didn’t merit screaming headlines, because they seemed routine rather than remarkable.
One was NATO’s ongoing bombing campaign in Libya, which now barely even pretends to be confined to humanitarian objectives, or to be bound by the letter of the United Nations resolution. Another was Friday’s Predator strike inside Pakistan’s tribal regions, which killed a group of suspected militants while the world’s attention was still fixed on Bin Laden’s final hours. Another was the American missile that just missed killing Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born cleric who has emerged as a key recruiter for Al Qaeda’s Yemen affiliate.
Imagine, for a moment, that these were George W. Bush’s policies at work. A quest for regime change in Libya, conducted without even a pro forma request for Congressional approval. A campaign of remote-controlled airstrikes, in which collateral damage is inevitable, carried out inside a country where we are not officially at war. A policy of targeted assassination against an American citizen who has been neither charged nor convicted in any U.S. court.
Imagine the outrage, the protests, the furious op-eds about right-wing tyranny and neoconservative overreach. Imagine all that, and then look at the reality. For most Democrats, what was considered creeping fascism under Bush is just good old-fashioned common sense when the president has a “D” beside his name.
more
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/opinion/09douthat.html?_r=0
Kucinich: Obama’s foreign policy no different from Bush’s
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/05/k...-no-different-from-bushs-video/#ixzz2dBMhzWZv
Foreign Policy: Transcript: "The Obama/Bush Foreign Policies: Why Can't America Change?"
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl...bush_foreign_policies_why_cant_america_change
If you choose to debate this, I'm not going to talk about 'lessor evil', Obama being black, or unsubstantiated emotions. I'm going to talk about the facts of what he has done.
You don't want to go there .. but love you still.
Even your opening line acknowledges daylight between GWB's foreign policy and Obama's. How many innocent civilians were killed in Libya, how many Americans? How much Money was spent? Who pledged ground troops? Who allied with the United States?
The difference is insurmountable to your point!
christiefan915
Catalyst
I think "wipe off the map" is just posturing by whomever. After all, Israel has nukes even if they want to pretend they don't.
quite a few civilians were killed in the NATO bombings -here's one:
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/04/29/nato-bombing-of-misrata-confirmed/
also supplyig the rebels -illegal weapons smuggling as "humanitarian aid"
they do, the reference is to Amindinihjad[sp?] (Iran), and also some jihadist groups.
whether it can be accomplished is another story, but Assad and Israel do have a de facto accomodation, if not recogition.
Israel hit a munitions factory, earlier in this war, and the Golan Height rockets are problematic.
Still (IMHO) I just don't see another war betwen the 2.