Reality check on electric cars

I think you don't know what the fuck you;re talking about.

I do. Moreso than you can even imagine. But you aren't here to discuss these things. I'd be glad to walk you through a Van Krevelen plot and explain kerogen and bitumen and catagenesis and diagenesis to you. I'd be glad to introduce you to porphyrin rings and biomarkers and pristane/phytane ratios.

I'd be glad to share the ton of photomicrographs I have personally taken over the years showing coal macerals.

But it would all be a waste of my time and you wouldn't learn anything due to your limitations.
 
I do. Moreso than you can even imagine. But you aren't here to discuss these things. I'd be glad to walk you through a Van Krevelen plot and explain kerogen and bitumen and catagenesis and diagenesis to you. I'd be glad to introduce you to porphyrin rings and biomarkers and pristane/phytane ratios.

I'd be glad to share the ton of photomicrographs I have personally taken over the years showing coal macerals.

But it would all be a waste of my time and you wouldn't learn anything due to your limitations.
no you don't.

you're an idiot in nearly all endeavors.

go eat your shit-flakes and give yourself a whirly.
 
no you don't.

you're an idiot in nearly all endeavors.

go eat your shit-flakes and give yourself a whirly.

Your brand of "discussion" is extremely boring. You don't know what you are talking about and for some reason it gives you immense pleasure to show off your ignorance to someone who spent years studying this stuff.

Do better.
 
Your brand of "discussion" is extremely boring. You don't know what you are talking about and for some reason it gives you immense pleasure to show off your ignorance to someone who spent years studying this stuff.

Do better.
I keep beating you.

but you're so arrogant you don't see it.

:truestory:
 
There are simply too many errors to point them all out individually. Pretty much everything you claim is wrong at some level if not at all levels.
Argument of the Stone fallacy.
It would take too long to explain this to you.
You have nothing to explain. I already know your chants.
And it's clear you and I have very different levels of competency in this topic.
Very clear. You continue to ignore theories of science. You continue to ignore mathematics. You continue to ignore English.

I have shown you the theories of science you ignore. I have shown you the mathematics you ignore. I have shown you the English words you obviously don't understand.
 
H2 is portable but almost no one is going to want to drive in California traffic with a tank of compressed hydrogen on their car. So you're stuck with solid storage like in metal hydrides. Those are bulky and heavy for the amount of hydrogen they can store. That leaves a reformer of some sort either using NH3 (aggressive and dangerous chemical) or CH3OH (aggressive and dangerous chemical that burns invisibly making refueling a car a dodgy experience).

Anhydrous ammonia is so dangerous...

6409f258a9c28.image_.jpg


And, it's not like it hasn't been used for vehicles on a widespread basis before...

ammoniafuelpicture_435EA01F90C06.jpg


During WW 2, the Belgians couldn't get gasoline to run their public transit system from the occupying Germans so they switched to anhydrous ammonia.


Anhydrous ammonia is in many ways safer than gasoline to handle. It's certainly safer than a huge battery made with lithium if the tank gets damaged.
Actually it's very much the issue. Direct application of H2 in a fuel cell is one thing, making H2 onboard the car is another.

It is irrelevant. Whether you are using internal combustion or a fuel cell, the hydrogen is converted to energy and water is the byproduct. With ammonia, it's basically the same thing only you also get nitrogen as a byproduct.
And you are forgetting the concepts of the "Switchable Battery Packs" which make refueling a lot faster for EV's.

No, but that idea is insane. Not all vehicles use the same battery pack. Battery packs weigh 1000 lbs. and up. The battery packs are usually in a not readily accessible location.
That means you need a warehouse with all the various types of battery packs available for customers, even ones that are rarely used. The cost involved in having all those extra packs laying around is obscenely expensive.
Then there's the weight and location of the pack to be changed. This means you need lifts for any vehicle that comes in for a swap, tooling to remove the pack, and that process might take anything up to an hour on its own. Next, you need heavy lifting equipment like specialized forklifts to move the battery and bring the replacement which takes equal time to install and test.
The whole won't improve charging times over fast charge stations and building a swapping facility will run you into the millions in cost to build, man, and maintain it.
Therefore, to make it work even half assed, you need ALL manufacturers to agree on a single type of battery pack that is standardized. That allows for a site to have that one type of pack ready to go, and every vehicle is the same process to remove and install it. That isn't likely to happen either since some people will want longer range, or a different size vehicle the pack won't fit. Or, are you suggesting that the US government do like East Germany did and make everyone have the one, same, crappy little car?

636453148225279748-GettyImages-458621516.jpg

DC Fast charging exists which can fill the EV in something like 20 minutes. Still a lot longer than filling up at the gas station, but if the swappable battery packs thing takes off it will be much faster.

The problem with fast charging is the ampacity of the system. For that to work you need a station capable of 100 to 300 amps at 240 or 480 volts to pour all that power into the vehicle quickly. That raises the cost of the station exponentially along with making the draw on the grid far greater. So, those are going to remain the exception and be expensive to use. That isn't going to change.
Either way EV's aren't for everyone nor for every use application.

When I was in Norway about 20 years ago at a conference on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles they basically said that unless the H2 storage situation could be worked out Fuel Cell cars would forever be a niche thing. And the last 20+ years it looks exactly like that is true.
EV's aren't for most people. They have never been, even in 1910 when halfway practical ICE vehicles barely existed. They're fine if they're your second car and daily commute vehicle (eg., you are rich enough to afford two cars like that) and you live in an urban area. In Arizona for example, there are people that commute one way to work in excess of 60 miles. Yea, you probably think that's insane, but people here do it because you are driving almost the entire distance at 75 to 80 mph. I've actually met people that commute in excess of 100 to 150 miles a day just so they can have a cheaper home, or live in a particular area with amenities they want.

Norway is about 80% the size of California and roughly the same shape. About half of Norway is all but uninhabited due to geography too. Their push for EV's won't work in the US. Fuel cell cars are the way to eventually go. In the meantime, hybrids are the best choice, not straight EV's. Toyota even worked out the math proving it.


So, we let the market have hybrids as an alternative to ICE vehicles while we move eventually to fuel cells and EVs are bypassed as the impractical, expensive, alternative they are.
 
Oil and Coal take so long to form that they are not renewable by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly not on a human timescale.
Oil is not a fossil.
Coal is not a fossil (though it may contain fossils).

Oil is formed continuously. It does not take long to form. Oil is a renewable fuel.
Oil can be synthesized in a matter of minutes. There is absolutely no reason the same thing doesn't happen underground. It's the same chemistry.
 
Anhydrous ammonia is so dangerous...

I can tell you've never had to work with it on an industrial scale. Yes it is dangerous. Just because you can find a picture of an NH3 tank doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

Get an SDS for it. Check it out. I assume you know what an SDS is and how to read one.

It is irrelevant. Whether you are using internal combustion or a fuel cell, the hydrogen is converted to energy and water is the byproduct. With ammonia, it's basically the same thing only you also get nitrogen as a byproduct.

No. You have to strip off the Hydrogens from the NH3. That isn't the same thing. It is a larger process than just directly pumping H2 into a fuel cell.

No, but that idea is insane. Not all vehicles use the same battery pack. Battery packs weigh 1000 lbs. and up.

Google swappable batteries for EV's and take a look at the concepts.

Fuel cell cars are the way to eventually go.

I'll trust the people at the transportation fuels conference in Norway that I presented at about 25 years ago. You can rely on whatever it is you rely on for your info.

In the meantime, hybrids are the best choice, not straight EV's. Toyota even worked out the math proving it.

I don't mind hybrids. It's a good solution that helps offset those use-cases where EV's aren't a good fit.

So, we let the market have hybrids as an alternative to ICE vehicles while we move eventually to fuel cells and EVs are bypassed as the impractical, expensive, alternative they are.

We won't move to fuel cells anytime in the near future. But, again, I just worked in the field for a brief while so I'm sure you have a much better feel for the topic.
 
I can tell you've never had to work with it on an industrial scale. Yes it is dangerous. Just because you can find a picture of an NH3 tank doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

Get an SDS for it. Check it out. I assume you know what an SDS is and how to read one.

I know what an MSDS is, but not an "SDS." Let's start with the NFPA ratings:

M3391.png


M3346.a5b2d61d644c03729010eacef8ce52e1.png


Lithium-NFPA-Chemical-Label-LB-1592-078.gif


Of the three, lithium is easily the most dangerous. Ammonia is more a health hazard, while gasoline is more of a fire hazard. We handle gasoline safely. We can handle ammonia safely. Farmers do that all the time. Anhydrous ammonia is one of the most common commercial fertilizers on the planet today.
No. You have to strip off the Hydrogens from the NH3. That isn't the same thing. It is a larger process than just directly pumping H2 into a fuel cell.

That's with a fuel cell. You can run an ICE vehicle on Anhydrous ammonia directly.

Google swappable batteries for EV's and take a look at the concepts.

And, that's all they'll ever be is concepts. The cost to do this on a nationwide scale is staggering.
I'll trust the people at the transportation fuels conference in Norway that I presented at about 25 years ago. You can rely on whatever it is you rely on for your info.

I won't. I've met far too many "experts" over my lifetime that were anything but.
I don't mind hybrids. It's a good solution that helps offset those use-cases where EV's aren't a good fit.

They're a solution. EV's are a problem.
We won't move to fuel cells anytime in the near future. But, again, I just worked in the field for a brief while so I'm sure you have a much better feel for the topic.

I wouldn't bet on that. One problem today is that government and the Left have fixated on EV's as the solution to the exclusion of anything else.
 
Anhydrous ammonia is so dangerous...

6409f258a9c28.image_.jpg
Yes, it is. This equipment has a lot of controls in place to allow reasonably safe handling for this purpose.
And, it's not like it hasn't been used for vehicles on a widespread basis before...

ammoniafuelpicture_435EA01F90C06.jpg


During WW 2, the Belgians couldn't get gasoline to run their public transit system from the occupying Germans so they switched to anhydrous ammonia.
People died from it too. That's why they stopped using it.
Anhydrous ammonia is in many ways safer than gasoline to handle.
No, it isn't.
It's certainly safer than a huge battery made with lithium if the tank gets damaged.
Batteries are not stored in tanks.
It is irrelevant. Whether you are using internal combustion or a fuel cell, the hydrogen is converted to energy and water is the byproduct. With ammonia, it's basically the same thing only you also get nitrogen as a byproduct.
An with hydrocarbons, you get water and CO2 as the product. Meh.
No, but that idea is insane. Not all vehicles use the same battery pack. Battery packs weigh 1000 lbs. and up. The battery packs are usually in a not readily accessible location.
That means you need a warehouse with all the various types of battery packs available for customers, even ones that are rarely used. The cost involved in having all those extra packs laying around is obscenely expensive.
Worse, those packs all have to be charged at a rate faster than the discharge cars are using. It has done nothing to alleviate the need to charge those batteries, including the electrical requirements for doing so. It accomplishes nothing, and adds a huge inventory problem and a dangerous procedure and time consuming procedure.
Then there's the weight and location of the pack to be changed. This means you need lifts for any vehicle that comes in for a swap, tooling to remove the pack, and that process might take anything up to an hour on its own.
It takes longer than that to exchange a battery in an EV! Remember, the coolant lines?
Next, you need heavy lifting equipment like specialized forklifts to move the battery and bring the replacement which takes equal time to install and test.
The whole won't improve charging times over fast charge stations and building a swapping facility will run you into the millions in cost to build, man, and maintain it.
Billions. Remember those power lines to feed such a facility? And what do you with all that disposed coolant?
Therefore, to make it work even half assed, you need ALL manufacturers to agree on a single type of battery pack that is standardized.
Which probably won't happen. To each manufacture, that battery pack is 'the farm' so to speak. The reason they are in business. You might as well try to get people to standardize on car engines.
That allows for a site to have that one type of pack ready to go, and every vehicle is the same process to remove and install it. That isn't likely to happen either since some people will want longer range, or a different size vehicle the pack won't fit. Or, are you suggesting that the US government do like East Germany did and make everyone have the one, same, crappy little car?
Good point. That's exactly what he's suggesting.
The problem with fast charging is the ampacity of the system.
It also damages the battery.
For that to work you need a station capable of 100 to 300 amps at 240 or 480 volts to pour all that power into the vehicle quickly.
A typical Supercharger requires 100 amps @ 480vdc. A single plug is essentially like a service entrance on smaller homes, but with a rectifier and voltage regulator circuit (and associated charge pump) in the way. These stations use 600v mains.

Li-ion batteries, like any battery, have an internal resistance. Ramming this kind of current into the battery damages it over time. Further, it still takes about an hour to fully charge the battery. The car must keep the coolant pump running to keep the battery from catching fire under these conditions. The practical upshot is that you charge your EV this way, your battery range is rather quickly reduced, requiring REPLACEMENT of the battery at some point.

Vehicle Li-ion batteries are more designed to handle level 2 charging, which can take awhile. The current requirement for these is a bit like installing another dryer, as you already know, but in the garage (with associated code requirements).
That raises the cost of the station exponentially along with making the draw on the grid far greater. So, those are going to remain the exception and be expensive to use. That isn't going to change.
Quite right.
EV's aren't for most people. They have never been, even in 1910 when halfway practical ICE vehicles barely existed. They're fine if they're your second car and daily commute vehicle (eg., you are rich enough to afford two cars like that) and you live in an urban area. In Arizona for example, there are people that commute one way to work in excess of 60 miles. Yea, you probably think that's insane, but people here do it because you are driving almost the entire distance at 75 to 80 mph. I've actually met people that commute in excess of 100 to 150 miles a day just so they can have a cheaper home, or live in a particular area with amenities they want.
Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. There's a reason. There's also a reasons the market has yet again collapsed.
Norway is about 80% the size of California and roughly the same shape. About half of Norway is all but uninhabited due to geography too. Their push for EV's won't work in the US. Fuel cell cars are the way to eventually go. In the meantime, hybrids are the best choice, not straight EV's. Toyota even worked out the math proving it.
It doesn't work for Norway either.

EVs suck in cold weather. The lower the temperature, the slower they charge. If it's cold enough, they won't charge at all!

So, we let the market have hybrids as an alternative to ICE vehicles while we move eventually to fuel cells and EVs are bypassed as the impractical, expensive, alternative they are.
Hybrids are a gasoline car.
 
I can tell you've never had to work with it on an industrial scale. Yes it is dangerous. Just because you can find a picture of an NH3 tank doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

Get an SDS for it. Check it out. I assume you know what an SDS is and how to read one.
This is correct.
No. You have to strip off the Hydrogens from the NH3. That isn't the same thing. It is a larger process than just directly pumping H2 into a fuel cell.
He is not talking about making hydrogen from ammonia.
Google swappable batteries for EV's and take a look at the concepts.
Not practical, for the reasons T.A. Gardner and I have given you.
I'll trust the people at the transportation fuels conference in Norway that I presented at about 25 years ago. You can rely on whatever it is you rely on for your info.
Stop pretending, Twilight. You didn't present anything anywhere. You deny theories of science and chemistry.
I don't mind hybrids. It's a good solution that helps offset those use-cases where EV's aren't a good fit.
EVs aren't a good fit, Twilight. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs.
We won't move to fuel cells anytime in the near future.
They're already here, Twilight.
But, again, I just worked in the field for a brief while so I'm sure you have a much better feel for the topic.
You never were a chemist or an engineer or an electrician, Twilight. Stop pretending.
 
I do. Moreso than you can even imagine. But you aren't here to discuss these things. I'd be glad to walk you through a Van Krevelen plot and explain kerogen and bitumen and catagenesis and diagenesis to you. I'd be glad to introduce you to porphyrin rings and biomarkers and pristane/phytane ratios.

I'd be glad to share the ton of photomicrographs I have personally taken over the years showing coal macerals.

But it would all be a waste of my time and you wouldn't learn anything due to your limitations.
Buzzwords won't work, Twilight.
 
I know what an MSDS is, but not an "SDS." Let's start with the NFPA ratings:

M3391.png


M3346.a5b2d61d644c03729010eacef8ce52e1.png


Lithium-NFPA-Chemical-Label-LB-1592-078.gif


Of the three, lithium is easily the most dangerous. Ammonia is more a health hazard, while gasoline is more of a fire hazard. We handle gasoline safely. We can handle ammonia safely. Farmers do that all the time. Anhydrous ammonia is one of the most common commercial fertilizers on the planet today.
Farmers that use it are specially trained to handle the ammonia safely. You can't do that for people filling up their cars with ammonia.

Gasoline is a fire hazard, yes. But risks of uncontrolled fire can be easily controlled, even to the point that people can fill up their own cars with it.

The lithium in batteries is sealed in the battery.

That's with a fuel cell. You can run an ICE vehicle on Anhydrous ammonia directly.
Only by replacing the induction system and exhaust system. Further, ammonia doesn't have the energy density of gasoline, and ammonia must be manufactured for those quantities. Oil does not.
I won't. I've met far too many "experts" over my lifetime that were anything but.
Haven't we both!
They're a solution. EV's are a problem.
There is no 'problem' to require a 'solution'. There is nothing to 'fix'.
I wouldn't bet on that. One problem today is that government and the Left have fixated on EV's as the solution to the exclusion of anything else.
Certainly true.
 
This is correct.

He is not talking about making hydrogen from ammonia.

There's only two routes: either direct use of NH3 or thermal cracking to get the H2. The former is still being developed (so not a reality yet) and the latter is exactly what I was talking about:

"However, the current methods for extracting energy from ammonia are not without shortcomings. For instance, ammonia combustion typically requires co-fired fuels, leads to nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions, and has relatively low efficiency. Thermal cracking en route to hydrogen fuel cell power generation is energy-intensive, averaging around 0.30 MWh per ton of production. Combined with conversion losses, the overall energy output is reduced by more than 25% when converted from ammonia, a significant loss in terms of the scale needed for industrial applications. Additionally, residual ammonia — even in trace amounts — can irreversibly damage fuel cells, increasing the risk of technical failure and asset loss expenses." https://mattiq.com/direct-ammonia-fuel-cells-the-road-to-commercialization



You never were a chemist or an engineer or an electrician, Twilight. Stop pretending.

Clearly I know more than you do. So it doesn't really matter, does it?
 
I know what an MSDS is, but not an "SDS."

LOL. Then you haven't been active in the field for a few years now. They stopped using the phrase MSDS years ago. Now it's SDS.

Do keep up.

Let's start with the NFPA ratings:

M3391.png

NFPA 3 = NOT GOOD.

Of the three, lithium is easily the most dangerous.

You don't really know what you are talking about here. They are very different dangers.

If you think ammonia is not a toxic gas then I hope to god you NEVER set foot in a lab I'm working in. The EH&S guy would have you out on your ass PDQ.

 
There's only two routes: either direct use of NH3 or thermal cracking to get the H2. The former is still being developed (so not a reality yet) and the latter is exactly what I was talking about:
He is not talking about getting hydrogen from ammonia. Fixation. Hallucination.
"However, the current methods for extracting energy from ammonia are not without shortcomings. For instance, ammonia combustion typically requires co-fired fuels,
Nope. Ammonia burns.
leads to nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions,
So?
and has relatively low efficiency.
True.
Thermal cracking en route to hydrogen fuel cell power generation is energy-intensive,
There is no 'thermal cracking' of hydrogen. Hydrogen is hydrogen.
averaging around 0.30 MWh per ton of production. Combined with conversion losses, the overall energy output is reduced by more than 25% when converted from ammonia, a significant loss in terms of the scale needed for industrial applications.
He is not talking about obtaining hydrogen from ammonia. Fixation. Hallucination.
Clearly I know more than you do. So it doesn't really matter, does it?
Clearly you are not even paying attention to the conversation.
Pretending that you're a chemist, or an engineer, or a scientist; won't work.
 
He is not talking about getting hydrogen from ammonia. Fixation. Hallucination.

Nope. Ammonia burns.

So?

True.

There is no 'thermal cracking' of hydrogen. Hydrogen is hydrogen.

He is not talking about obtaining hydrogen from ammonia. Fixation. Hallucination.

Clearly you are not even paying attention to the conversation.
Pretending that you're a chemist, or an engineer, or a scientist; won't work.

If you don't know why NOx emissions are bad and you don't know what "thermal cracking" is then we don't have much to talk about here.
 
LOL. Then you haven't been active in the field for a few years now. They stopped using the phrase MSDS years ago. Now it's SDS.
Blatant lie.
Do keep up.

NFPA 3 = NOT GOOD.
It's very good. You should read it.
You don't really know what you are talking about here. They are very different dangers.
DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR PROBLEM ON ME OR ANYBODY ELSE, TWILIGHT!
If you think ammonia is not a toxic gas then I hope to god you NEVER set foot in a lab I'm working in. The EH&S guy would have you out on your ass PDQ.
You don't work in a lab. Stop pretending.
 
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