Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

You do not need a level 2 charger. You can plug it into your garage outlet. It takes a few hours, but it does not need attention. It will recharge while you sleep. Just plug it in. Level 2s are expensive. However, as expected, they are getting better and cheaper. The technology has not stalled. There are chargers at stores that work in a very short time. Many top off while they eat or shop.
Range anxiety disappears after a while. You just know the drill.

Fantasy. No such charger possible.
Joules are joules. It requires a certain amount of energy to move a certain weight a certain distance. There are no shortcuts.

You can't ram that kind of power into a battery in short time. "Topping off" means nothing. Charging from a discharged battery to fully charged requires 10-12 hours, and THAT is if the charger is a high current one, requiring heavier wiring.

These cars are useless for cross country travel or commercial use of a vehicle requiring all day driving.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes, the technology is at a dead end. You can't get around the periodic table and laws of chemistry with a battery. You can't design a charging station that gets around the laws of electricity either. Both are already well established and there's no getting around either. The second somebody starts producing a fuel cell vehicle that runs on hydrogen or ammonia, battery cars are finished. The fuel cell is far more practical.

The production of hydrogen is itself power intensive. It is also bulky. It has a very low BTU per gallon. A fuel cell using hydrogen won't do any better.

Same with ammonia, PLUS ammonia is highly toxic. Any leaks are extremely dangerous...even much more so than a natural gas leak.

 

[Into the Night]

one of the dumbest comments ever made on the internet...ever.

Argument of the stone fallacy. Obviously, you deny physics.

 

[Into the Night]

Wrong. The charging time has gotten shorter and shorter. There are level 3s that are extremely fast.https://blog.evbox.com/level-3-charging-speed

Lie. You cannot change the laws of physics, dude. Joules are joules. You need a certain amount of energy to move a car a certain distance. There are NO shortcuts.

 

[Into the Night]

That doesn't change the amount of power put in. So while you might charge a particular type of battery quicker, the amount of power used remains the same. The amount of power out of a particular battery, as well as cell voltage, is determined by its size and chemistry.

He's making shit up.

The internal resistance of the battery is what DESTROYS a battery if you charge it too fast.

 

[Into the Night]

All you ever do is prove your clueless

Inversion fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

So? A car requires energy to move. Congrats on figuring it out. here are the stats. https://electrek.co/2021/07/27/ev-vs-ice-how-far-can-you-travel-in-each-state-for-100/

Wups. You failed to mention the most important stat:

It takes 10-12 hours to refuel an electric car. It takes only a few minute to refuel a gasoline or diesel powered car.
You also failed to account for the cost of hotel rooms while you wait for your electric car to charge if taking it on a cross country trip.

...or you could just live with the homeless while you wait for your car to charge.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I can't read any of these posts, but I do think that they should bring back the block long Cadillac Eldorado as an electric.
I'm sick of wimpy little cars and of "crossovers" (which is just a modern word for undersized station wagon).

Maybe with electric, we can bring back the freeway battleships. I really miss them.
If you were a teenage with an old used one, you didn't need to worry about getting a room.
But why am I thinking that at 75?

 

[Into the Night]

I can't read any of these posts, but I do think that they should bring back the block long Cadillac Eldorado as an electric.

Learn to read.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The production of hydrogen is itself power intensive. It is also bulky. It has a very low BTU per gallon. A fuel cell using hydrogen won't do any better.

Same with ammonia, PLUS ammonia is highly toxic. Any leaks are extremely dangerous...even much more so than a natural gas leak.

Anhydrous ammonia is a liquid and easily and safely stored. It is already widely used in agriculture as a fertilizer so there are already good regulations and protocols for it safe use in place. It's easy to manufacture as well. It's use in a fuel cell would be fairly easy to go to.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Fantasy. No such charger possible.
Joules are joules. It requires a certain amount of energy to move a certain weight a certain distance. There are no shortcuts.

You can't ram that kind of power into a battery in short time. "Topping off" means nothing. Charging from a discharged battery to fully charged requires 10-12 hours, and THAT is if the charger is a high current one, requiring heavier wiring.

These cars are useless for cross country travel or commercial use of a vehicle requiring all day driving.

Just think of it as magic since you can't understand the science.

Most commercial delivery vehicles travel less than 150 miles per day so any vehicle that can go 200 miles between charges will do this with ease.
https://www.gobrightdrop.com/newsroom/gm-launches-brightdrop

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The problems with battery cars are:

Charge time. Unless you can get this down to around five minutes, it is going to be a major issue. This results in stupidities like this:

Effect of charge time on battery life. This is variable, but generally too fast a charge reduces both battery life and the amount of charge you can cram into it. There is also, with many if not all, batteries the effect of "memory." That is, a battery gets used to having a certain charge and even though it can on paper hold a greater one, because of the charge used it will only take and hold some fraction of that. For example, you regularly fast charge a battery to 80% to save time on charging. The battery gets where it will only take an 80% charge no matter how long or carefully you charge it. That is referred to as "battery memory."

Batteries have a finite life and the ones in electric cars are grossly expensive to replace. This means your car has a realistic service life of around 7 or 8 years at most, possibly less, and when it reaches that point has very little resale value due to the need for a new battery. There is no way, at least at present, that a battery car will remain in service beyond maybe 10 years at most and almost always less. That's half the potential life of many ICE vehicles. I have one pick up I bought new in 2001. My kid is driving it today and it runs great. It's got nearly 250,000 miles on it and is still going strong. Total maintenance beyond routine (like oil changes etc.) has been maybe $2000. That's way below what a Tesla is going to run you in maintenance.

Battery cars cost considerably more than ICE equivalents. This is a barrier to market entry.

Battery costs are likely to rise as the materials to make them become increasingly scarce. There's more oil on the planet than recoverable lithium, and oil is a renewable resource unlike lithium. I doubt we're going back to batteries using nickel or lead...

So, battery cars are acceptable for niche use but not for general applications. Commuter car for trips to work? Great. Delivery vehicles on a fixed route with a fixed charging point? Great. Flexible travel greater than the vehicle's single charge range? Nope. Use in off-road and remote locations without a charging station? Nope. Extended use in service beyond the initial installed battery life? Nope.

Niche use is the best battery vehicles will manage.

 

[Into the Night]

Anhydrous ammonia is a liquid and easily and safely stored.

It is NOT easily safely stored. It is a very toxic material.

It is already widely used in agriculture as a fertilizer

WRONG. Ammonium nitrate is used a fertilizer, not ammonia.

so there are already good regulations and protocols for it safe use in place.

Indeed there are, because of it's very dangerous nature.

It's easy to manufacture as well.

You require energy to manufacture it.

It's use in a fuel cell would be fairly easy to go to.

No. Tanks of ammonia are extremely dangerous.

 

[Into the Night]

Just think of it as magic since you can't understand the science.

Inversion fallacy.

Most commercial delivery vehicles travel less than 150 miles per day so any vehicle that can go 200 miles between charges will do this with ease.
https://www.gobrightdrop.com/newsroom/gm-launches-brightdrop

Argument from randU fallacy. You are quoting made up numbers.

 

[Into the Night]

The problems with battery cars are:

Charge time. Unless you can get this down to around five minutes, it is going to be a major issue. This results in stupidities like this:

Effect of charge time on battery life. This is variable, but generally too fast a charge reduces both battery life and the amount of charge you can cram into it. There is also, with many if not all, batteries the effect of "memory." That is, a battery gets used to having a certain charge and even though it can on paper hold a greater one, because of the charge used it will only take and hold some fraction of that. For example, you regularly fast charge a battery to 80% to save time on charging. The battery gets where it will only take an 80% charge no matter how long or carefully you charge it. That is referred to as "battery memory."

Batteries have a finite life and the ones in electric cars are grossly expensive to replace. This means your car has a realistic service life of around 7 or 8 years at most, possibly less, and when it reaches that point has very little resale value due to the need for a new battery. There is no way, at least at present, that a battery car will remain in service beyond maybe 10 years at most and almost always less. That's half the potential life of many ICE vehicles. I have one pick up I bought new in 2001. My kid is driving it today and it runs great. It's got nearly 250,000 miles on it and is still going strong. Total maintenance beyond routine (like oil changes etc.) has been maybe $2000. That's way below what a Tesla is going to run you in maintenance.

Battery cars cost considerably more than ICE equivalents. This is a barrier to market entry.

Battery costs are likely to rise as the materials to make them become increasingly scarce. There's more oil on the planet than recoverable lithium, and oil is a renewable resource unlike lithium. I doubt we're going back to batteries using nickel or lead...

So, battery cars are acceptable for niche use but not for general applications. Commuter car for trips to work? Great. Delivery vehicles on a fixed route with a fixed charging point? Great. Flexible travel greater than the vehicle's single charge range? Nope. Use in off-road and remote locations without a charging station? Nope. Extended use in service beyond the initial installed battery life? Nope.

Niche use is the best battery vehicles will manage.

All correct except for one point:

Lithium oxide (the raw ore for lithium batteries) is a common material.

Smelting it into lithium is very energy intensive. Further, the cobalt and other rare earths to make the motors is difficult to come buy, largely due to ecology laws from The Oligarchy.

As you correctly note, Li-ion batteries have a limited life span. While 20 years is claimed, they seem to last only about 5-7 years (no better than a lead acid battery). Replacing them is expensive, essentially totaling the car.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

It is NOT easily safely stored. It is a very toxic material.

WRONG. Ammonium nitrate is used a fertilizer, not ammonia.

Indeed there are, because of it's very dangerous nature.

You require energy to manufacture it.

No. Tanks of ammonia are extremely dangerous.

Bullshit!

Anhydrous ammonia is one of the, if not the, most widely used and available commercial fertilizers in use today.

 

[Into the Night]

Bullshit!

Anhydrous ammonia is one of the, if not the, most widely used and available commercial fertilizers in use today.

Look at the tanks, dude. See the warning signs on them? One farm is not most farms either. Compositional error fallacy. You are also wandering off topic.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Inversion fallacy.

Argument from randU fallacy. You are quoting made up numbers.

fallacy fallacy!
The fallacy fallacy occurs when someone, usually Into the Night, claims another poster is using fallacies in order to make themselves look more intelligent than they actually are.

Your claim that a battery requires 10-12 hours to be fully charged is a made up number on your part. I can charge a lithium AAA battery in under an hour. Anyone can do that. Charging a batter is dependent on the power you can supply the battery in a given time compared to the total power it needs to reach a full charge. Several factors can affect this. But to claim a battery always requires 10-12 hours is a ridiculous made up number on your part. Anyone that has ever had a dead car battery knows they don't have to drive around for 10-12 hours to recharge it once they get their car started. You clearly don't understand the real world let alone science. It's all some magic made up fallacy to you.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Look at the tanks, dude. See the warning signs on them? One farm is not most farms either. Compositional error fallacy. You are also wandering off topic.

This site takes a fairly opposed view to anhydrous ammonia but shows that even with accidents it isn't that unsafe

https://www.foreffectivegov.org/is-...caused an estim ated $3.5 million in damages.

Anhydrous ammonia is a health hazard but not particularly a fire hazard. It is also stable meaning it won't explode.

It's basically the reverse of gasoline which is a minor health hazard and a major fire hazard.

 

[katzgar]

Fantasy. No such charger possible.
Joules are joules. It requires a certain amount of energy to move a certain weight a certain distance. There are no shortcuts.

You can't ram that kind of power into a battery in short time. "Topping off" means nothing. Charging from a discharged battery to fully charged requires 10-12 hours, and THAT is if the charger is a high current one, requiring heavier wiring.

These cars are useless for cross country travel or commercial use of a vehicle requiring all day driving.

Don't try and say smart stuff You're not smart enough to figure out a face mask You're sure as hell not smart enough to figure out EVs