Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

Not sure where you are getting that from.
Sounds like an old wives tail.

Tesla batteries are broadly similar to your phone's batteries.
Lithium Ion 'family' based.

Sure, it is not good for the battery to let it go to zero.
But it will by no means cause the battery to fail if you do (unless there is something, structurally wrong with your battery).

He's not talking about charge level. He's talking about temperature. He is correct. Cold weather affect ALL batteries, particularly ones that are under continuous load (such as in an electric car). Further, HVAC in electric cars are electric, placing further load on the battery.

 

[Into the Night]

I did the same thing.
I ended up in jail over it.

And you are DEAD right.
Some cops FREAK OUT[/SIZE] if you try to outrun them.
They take it as you are disrespecting them.

When I got caught, I had been drinking.
They tested my breath back at the police station.
When I blew just under the limit?
The arresting officer started yelling.
I mean it...yelling.

'Fuck!!! What do you mean he is under? Test him again?'

And I had been VERY polite to the guy (only idiots do otherwise).
And I had hit nothing/no one during the chase.
It was at 2 a.m. roughly.

The funny thing was?
The further up the legal ladder I got (arresting officer, holding cell, court, prison).
The most respectful (with exceptions) the police/guards got.

The police at the station treated me like I had raped their dog.
It was a quiet, high-income, low crime city...that was probably why.

Whilst the guards at the prison treated you fine - so long as you did the same.
And you blew them every day - kidding (it's every other day - kidding).


Sorry...did not mean to hijack your point.
I get carried away.

Heh. If you are trying to outrun cops, you ARE disrespecting them!

 

[Into the Night]

I know a few in the body and performance business.
I like to go to car shows. Good people there with nice rides. Older generation hangs out with the classics, the kids with their low-riders and tuner cars..
I quit working on cars when they started putting fuel injection and all the other shit on them. I do maintenance on them, but forget that electrical shit.

All that 'electrical shit', as you put it, actually make things easier.
The computer can do it's own diagnoses pretty well, and the need for tune ups is reduced to just replacing the plugs once in a while. No points. No high voltage wiring. No carburetor air leaks. No funky compensation linkage on carburetors. No over rich mixture required to compensate for fuel dropout in the induction system. No induction heating system required.

You get more efficient use of fuel, and greater horsepower with the use of FADEC.
Example: An engine with a normally aspirated carburetor setup could develop 110HP. The SAME engine with a FADEC (now using multipoint injection) setup can easily develop 160HP, AND be less picky about the octane of the fuel.
Put a turbocharger or supercharger on the thing and you get bigger differences.

Don't write off FADEC as crap.

Small aircraft engines are REALLY bad in this regard. They still use magnetos, AND they use updraft carburetors (even crappier then the downdraft carburetors common in 1950-1960 cars). The engine is also air cooled, meaning an over rich mixture of fuel is used to cool it.
Only a few airplanes have FADEC setups. These are typically experimental category (homebuilts). The range on such aircraft can easily TRIPLE for the same amount of fuel. These have enough power to actually push you into your seat on the takeoff roll. Not like your typical wimpy Cessna engine setup.

A lot of 'old time' mechanics have an aversion of FADEC because they do not understand it. Like carburetors, there are good manufacturers and bad manufacturers. It is the bad manufacturers that make the 'news', so to speak, and color the opinion of people that simply do not understand FADEC and what it can do.

Ford did it lousy. So did Chevy. Their FADEC designs suck green tidewater. They are awful.
Toyota, Honda, and Subaru do it right. Some German designs do it right (but it's pretty inconsistent).

Sure, these are smaller engines, not the beast you are making. These aren't typically cars for car shows. They will reliably get you TO the car show, however!

 

[Into the Night]

I switched cars with friends. I had two, so they didn't know who was driving what. I had to go to the State Representative to get my license back. PennDOT lost my license and wouldn't issue me a new one (don't ask me why, they just said they can't). Fortunately, my father and the State Rep. were friends, so he went right in there and got my license back and in his office for me in a few days. PennDOT miraculously found it

They sound like a real bunch of morons at PennDOT.
Of course, many State DOT offices aren't much better!

 

[Into the Night]

I know a few in the body and performance business.
I like to go to car shows. Good people there with nice rides.
Older generation hangs out with the classics, the kids with their low-riders and tuner cars..

There is some real talent out there at these car shows. Some gorgeous restorations and a few really cool mods.
I see the same thing with the kids here. Nothing like the talent you see with these restoration guys.

 

[Into the Night]

He's not talking about charge level. He's talking about temperature. He is correct. Cold weather affect ALL batteries, particularly ones that are under continuous load (such as in an electric car). Further, HVAC in electric cars are electric, placing further load on the battery.

In cold weather, an electric car becomes an effective brick. It ain't going anywhere.

Internal combustion engines create their own heat. Even in Siberia, where it's so cold you have to build a wood fire under your car just to thaw it enough to start the engine, once it's running. It will keep running as long as you put fuel in it. Typical practice in such environments is to never shut the engine off again if you can help it, even when refueling the vehicle, or, of you do, for only minutes (the time it takes to refuel) and then immediately restart it and keep it running.

Can't do THAT with an electric car!

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Not sure where you are getting that from.
Sounds like an old wives tail.

Tesla batteries are broadly similar to your phone's batteries.
Lithium Ion 'family' based.

Sure, it is not good for the battery to let it go to zero.
But it will by no means cause the battery to fail if you do (unless there is something, structurally wrong with your battery).

A Tesla Roadster that is simply parked without being plugged in will eventually become a “brick”. The parasitic load from the car’s always-on subsystems continually drains the battery and if the battery’s charge is ever totally depleted, it is essentially destroyed. Complete discharge can happen even when the car is plugged in if it isn’t receiving sufficient current to charge, which can be caused by something as simple as using an extension cord. After battery death, the car is completely inoperable. At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it’s not even possible to enable tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means.

https://theunderstatement.com/post/...tally de pleted, it is essentially destroyed.

A Tesla Bricking Itself On The Highway Is A Reminder That Electric Cars Need To Solve Their Neutral Problem

https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-bricking-itself-on-the-highway-is-a-reminder-th-1847734019

So, you either turn off everything in the car and freeze in the dark, or if you run various systems draining the battery, you risk draining it to a point where the car becomes "bricked." The state of charge you are in at the beginning of having to sit there will play a role. Let's say your battery is at 50% charge going into this. Then the time to brick is far shorter than if you start with a 100% charge.
Once bricked, a Tesla cannot be recharged without going through a significantly difficult and lengthy process of battery recovery as the video shows.

 

[RB 60]

So are you going to race it?

I have thought about taking it to track day at Watkins Glen, but don't have the perception of driving a road course. So no, I doubt it.

 

[RB 60]

All that 'electrical shit', as you put it, actually make things easier.
The computer can do it's own diagnoses pretty well, and the need for tune ups is reduced to just replacing the plugs once in a while. No points. No high voltage wiring. No carburetor air leaks. No funky compensation linkage on carburetors. No over rich mixture required to compensate for fuel dropout in the induction system. No induction heating system required.

You get more efficient use of fuel, and greater horsepower with the use of FADEC.
Example: An engine with a normally aspirated carburetor setup could develop 110HP. The SAME engine with a FADEC (now using multipoint injection) setup can easily develop 160HP, AND be less picky about the octane of the fuel.
Put a turbocharger or supercharger on the thing and you get bigger differences.

Don't write off FADEC as crap.

Small aircraft engines are REALLY bad in this regard. They still use magnetos, AND they use updraft carburetors (even crappier then the downdraft carburetors common in 1950-1960 cars). The engine is also air cooled, meaning an over rich mixture of fuel is used to cool it.
Only a few airplanes have FADEC setups. These are typically experimental category (homebuilts). The range on such aircraft can easily TRIPLE for the same amount of fuel. These have enough power to actually push you into your seat on the takeoff roll. Not like your typical wimpy Cessna engine setup.

A lot of 'old time' mechanics have an aversion of FADEC because they do not understand it. Like carburetors, there are good manufacturers and bad manufacturers. It is the bad manufacturers that make the 'news', so to speak, and color the opinion of people that simply do not understand FADEC and what it can do.

Ford did it lousy. So did Chevy. Their FADEC designs suck green tidewater. They are awful.
Toyota, Honda, and Subaru do it right. Some German designs do it right (but it's pretty inconsistent).

Sure, these are smaller engines, not the beast you are making. These aren't typically cars for car shows. They will reliably get you TO the car show, however!

I'm not denying technology at all. I was looking at a few '07 GT 500s. Sweet car. A few mods and you're at 600+ HP economically and comfortably.

But yeah, your car gets you to see my car

 

[Into the Night]

I have thought about taking it to track day at Watkins Glen, but don't have the perception of driving a road course. So no, I doubt it.

Sounds like fun!

 

[Lionfish]

 

[McRocket]

He's not talking about charge level. He's talking about temperature. He is correct. Cold weather affect ALL batteries, particularly ones that are under continuous load (such as in an electric car). Further, HVAC in electric cars are electric, placing further load on the battery.

He is not correct.

Leaving an EV in the freezing cold with zero charge is NOT going to 'turn it into a brick'.

If you believe that?
You do not know what you are speaking of.

Sure, it will not help the battery and probably lessen it's peak charge ability.

But turn it in to a brick?
Pleeeease.

 

[McRocket]

Heh. If you are trying to outrun cops, you ARE disrespecting them!

Any cop that freaks out (literally) like he did over a harmless chase that resulted in no damage or injury and lasted all of a minute or two.
And was NEVER high speed?
Is mentally unbalanced and should not be a police officer.

What the fuck is this psycho going to do when he catches someone who DOES do a high speed chase?
Shoot him?
Beat him to death.
That cop was a whacko.

I was engaged to a cop's daughter.
I knew lots of police officers whom would agree with me.


Respect is EARNED.
Not given away.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I have thought about taking it to track day at Watkins Glen, but don't have the perception of driving a road course. So no, I doubt it.

My Europa would give you a run for your money on a track like Watkins Glen. It's designed to corner not just go fast in a straight line.

 

[McRocket]

https://theunderstatement.com/post/...tally de pleted, it is essentially destroyed.


https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-bricking-itself-on-the-highway-is-a-reminder-th-1847734019

So, you either turn off everything in the car and freeze in the dark, or if you run various systems draining the battery, you risk draining it to a point where the car becomes "bricked." The state of charge you are in at the beginning of having to sit there will play a role. Let's say your battery is at 50% charge going into this. Then the time to brick is far shorter than if you start with a 100% charge.
Once bricked, a Tesla cannot be recharged without going through a significantly difficult and lengthy process of battery recovery as the video shows.

Thanks for the link.

But from your link...'will eventually become a “brick”.'

Sure...if you leave it in that state for months it WILL eventually be come a brick.
I agree.

But you typed 'Better hope you aren't in a Tesla... The battery goes below a certain point, and you own a brick!' in reference to that Virginia pileup.
So I was naturally assuming you meant whilst stranded in that mess.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Thanks for the link.

But from your link...'will eventually become a “brick”.'

Sure...if you leave it in that state for months it WILL eventually be come a brick.
I agree.

But you typed 'Better hope you aren't in a Tesla... The battery goes below a certain point, and you own a brick!' in reference to that Virginia pileup.
So I was naturally assuming you meant whilst stranded in that mess.

It depends on several factors. There are documented cases where someone left the car parked for just a week or two with a low charge and it bricked. In the situation in Virginia, if you need to keep warm and run the heat and fans and such, you are going to draw down the battery PDQ. If you leave other systems on, they will drain it faster too. That's what I said about your choice: Freeze in the dark or risk bricking your car.

It could happen in a traffic jam lasting a day or more if you run the systems in the car versus shutting it down. A gasoline vehicle can run out of gas and you simply refill the tank. A Tesla out of charge requires a very expensive trip on a tow truck to a facility where they coax it back to life through a complex process. That's a design flaw Tesla has yet to fix.

I'll also say that an ICE vehicle with water cooling is a much more efficient heating system than electric heating that a Tesla provides (It's also more efficient than an air-cooled engine would give like the old VW Beetle had).

 

[McRocket]

It depends on several factors. There are documented cases where someone left the car parked for just a week or two with a low charge and it bricked. In the situation in Virginia, if you need to keep warm and run the heat and fans and such, you are going to draw down the battery PDQ. If you leave other systems on, they will drain it faster too. That's what I said about your choice: Freeze in the dark or risk bricking your car.

It could happen in a traffic jam lasting a day or more if you run the systems in the car versus shutting it down. A gasoline vehicle can run out of gas and you simply refill the tank. A Tesla out of charge requires a very expensive trip on a tow truck to a facility where they coax it back to life through a complex process. That's a design flaw Tesla has yet to fix.

I'll also say that an ICE vehicle with water cooling is a much more efficient heating system than electric heating that a Tesla provides (It's also more efficient than an air-cooled engine would give like the old VW Beetle had).

Well, I do not know about that.
There are about a BILLION rumors about Tesla's.

My only point was that they will not 'brick' if they go to zero charge in a snowstorm.
No Lithium Ion-family battery (that I know of) will.

If the snow storm lasts for months?
Then yes.

Besides.
If what you saying were to be true?
Tesla would HAVE to warn their owner's about that BIG TIME!!!
Or they would destroy their fabulous reputation.


BTW - I LOVE Tesla cars.
Not so the company.

They seem to be in the black now.
But the ONLY reason they survived this long was their stock price.
As they did not post a profit for ANY fiscal year for over 13 FY's (I believe).
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/TSLA/financials

And the two reasons their stock price went nuts was the Fed pumping up the markets and tree-huggers whom masturbate to pictures of Elon Musk.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Well, I do not know about that.
There are about a BILLION rumors about Tesla's.

My only point was that they will not 'brick' if they go to zero charge in a snowstorm.
No Lithium Ion-family battery (that I know of) will.

If the snow storm lasts for months?
Then yes.

Besides.
If what you saying were to be true?
Tesla would HAVE to warn their owner's about that BIG TIME!!!
Or they would destroy their fabulous reputation.


BTW - I LOVE Tesla cars.
Not so the company.

They seem to be in the black now.
But the ONLY reason they survived this long was their stock price.
As they did not post a profit for ANY fiscal year for over 13 FY's (I believe).
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/TSLA/financials

And the two reasons their stock price went nuts was the Fed pumping up the markets and tree-huggers whom masturbate to pictures of Elon Musk.

Tesla does warn customers about this and about keeping their car charged. It doesn't mean their customers listen. Did you read the handbook that came with your last vehicle?

The only reason Tesla is competitive at all is heavy government subsidies. Without those, they'd already be out of business.

You should note that both China and Norway, the two leaders in battery car use, subsidize these heavily and even impose penalties on ICE vehicles. Yet, neither is close to getting a majority of vehicle owners to purchase a battery car.

 

[McRocket]

Tesla does warn customers about this and about keeping their car charged. It doesn't mean their customers listen. Did you read the handbook that came with your last vehicle?

The only reason Tesla is competitive at all is heavy government subsidies. Without those, they'd already be out of business.

You should note that both China and Norway, the two leaders in battery car use, subsidize these heavily and even impose penalties on ICE vehicles. Yet, neither is close to getting a majority of vehicle owners to purchase a battery car.

Those have helped.
But even with them - they were still no where near running in the black.

The gigantic stock price saved them.
It is almost impossible that they could have expanded and survived without them.

You can raise HUGE amounts of money issuing hot, new stock (which is exactly what they did).
You cannot raise lots of money, losing money every fiscal year.

 

[Into the Night]

He is not correct.

Leaving an EV in the freezing cold with zero charge is NOT going to 'turn it into a brick'.

Yes it will.

If you believe that?
You do not know what you are speaking of.

Denial of chemistry. Denial of engineering.

Sure, it will not help the battery and probably lessen it's peak charge ability.

Zero charge is NOT charged.

But turn it in to a brick?
Pleeeease.

Yes. It turns it into a brick. The battery may be permanently damaged, requiring replacement (approx $22,000) for a Tesla battery replacement!

Further, the software on a Tesla conducts excessive logging, overcycling the NVRAM of the main computer. When this fails (typically in a about 4 years), the main computer fails. It's replacement cost is about $1800 plus special towing charges (the car cannot be towed without a functioning computer!)

Further, EV batteries discharge even when you are not using the car! All batteries have this. It is called parasitic leakage (the battery is also a resistor) and will discharge the battery to ZERO charge, bricking the car.

A fully charged EV battery will be able to only sustain about a third of it's normal range in cold weather, due to slower electrochemical reactions, and due to the additional load placed on the car for heat, lights, defrost, etc. in such weather.

That does not happen to a gasoline car.