Reality check on electric cars

I'll give you a hint. It doesn't come from coal as was claimed.

Natural gas, maybe?

The stuff Biden stopped lots of it being produced in America?

Electric cars are still a net energy loss. Not only is fuel burning to make power to run them, but also mining the rare minerals for all those batteries and transporting them and then transporting them to the dump when they die takes fuel.

In addition to the transportation costs for all the other car parts.
 
Natural gas, maybe?
The funny thing about natural gas is it isn't coal.


The stuff Biden stopped lots of it being produced in America?

Electric cars are still a net energy loss. Not only is fuel burning to make power to run them, but also mining the rare minerals for all those batteries and transporting them and then transporting them to the dump when they die takes fuel.

In addition to the transportation costs for all the other car parts.

I would love to see your math on your claim.


Electric cars require less energy than gas powered vehicles over their lifespan. No one is claiming electric cars require no energy.
 
The funny thing about natural gas is it isn't coal.
So?
I would love to see your math on your claim.
Each conversion of energy creates additional loss. This lost energy goes up as waste heat.
Converting fuel to mechanical energy, converting that to electricity, then using that to charge a car, then using that to run the car converting it to mechanical energy is far less efficient than just burning the fuel in the car in the first place. You also don't hours to refuel a gasoline powered car.
Electric cars require less energy than gas powered vehicles over their lifespan. No one is claiming electric cars require no energy.
Nope. Too many conversion losses. Too much of is goes up in waste heat.
 
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So?

Each conversion of energy creates additional loss. This lost energy goes up as waste heat.
Converting fuel to mechanical energy, converting that to electricity, then using that to charge a car, then using that to run the car converting it to mechanical energy is far less efficient than just burning the fuel in the car in the first place. You also don't hours to refuel a gasoline powered car.

Nope. Too many conversion losses. Too much of is goes up in waste heat.

LOL. So no math? Just your usual complete ignorance about physics.

Energy is lost when one type of energy is converted to another but the % loss for the conversion can vary quite a bit. Burning fuel in your car is a very inefficient way to convert fuel to mechanical energy since it is only about 20-30% efficient. That means an electric is more efficient if you create the electricity with 60% efficiency such as a modern combined cycle gas plant and then have an 85% efficiency to charge the battery and a 90% efficiency motor.
 

It's a good think no one is proposing that all cars be electric by the end of February.

The world is not yet ready to go to the moon.
The world is not yet ready to stop using horses to pull plows.
The world is not yet ready to cross oceans with ships.
The world is not yet ready to light homes with electric lights.

Because the world may not be ready today doesn't mean it can't be ready in a few decades. The only reason it can't be ready is if we listen to all the know-nothings instead of getting ready.
 
Electric cars and charging get better all the time. With fast-charging it is down to half an hour assuming you are down to near zero and want a full charge. Neither of those are normal conditions. Some are experimenting with roads that charge you as you drive over them. Chargers get faster and faster.
 
It's a good think no one is proposing that all cars be electric by the end of February.

The world is not yet ready to go to the moon.
The world is not yet ready to stop using horses to pull plows.
The world is not yet ready to cross oceans with ships.
The world is not yet ready to light homes with electric lights.

Because the world may not be ready today doesn't mean it can't be ready in a few decades. The only reason it can't be ready is if we listen to all the know-nothings instead of getting ready.

Unlike any of the cases you presented, battery cars are nothing new and have been tried unsuccessfully for over a century...

Edison-Electric-Car.jpg


That's the state-of-the-art in battery cars in 1912.
 
Unlike any of the cases you presented, battery cars are nothing new and have been tried unsuccessfully for over a century...

Edison-Electric-Car.jpg


That's the state-of-the-art in battery cars in 1912.

Battery powered cars preceded internal combustion engines. The internal combustion engine was cheaper to run and more reliable (at the time), so it was used to power transportation vehicles.
 
Unlike any of the cases you presented, battery cars are nothing new and have been tried unsuccessfully for over a century...

Edison-Electric-Car.jpg


That's the state-of-the-art in battery cars in 1912.

ROFLMAO. So your argument is because the world wasn't ready then it can never be ready? You are only restating your idiocy in order to prove you are an idiot.


This is the rocket that launched Sputnik. Clearly the world wasn't yet ready to go to the moon but that didn't prevent man from going to the moon when science and engineering improved.
G9dsj.jpg


The first tractor - Clearly the world wasn't ready to stop using horses to pull plows but that didn't prevent tractors from becoming the machine to pull farm equipment when science and engineering improved.
https://www.farmcollector.com/steam-traction/first-steam-tractor-zm0z01sepzraw/

I think we can all agree that man used boats of various kinds for centuries before one was ever able to cross an ocean.
 
ROFLMAO. So your argument is because the world wasn't ready then it can never be ready? You are only restating your idiocy in order to prove you are an idiot.

Argument from fallacy on your part. The world rejected batteries then for the same reason they should be rejected now. The cost of the vehicle is higher compared to internal combustion. The charging time is unacceptably long. The batteries don't last and are expensive to replace.
In fact, the Edison electric car was popular and a good seller until internal combustion engines running on gasoline began to compete with them. Then the practicality of gasoline motors demolished the battery car market.
Since then, they have been tried repeatedly each time failing. The only reason they are even marginally competitive today is that government is heavily subsidizing them. When the subsidies end, the battery car market ends.


This is the rocket that launched Sputnik. Clearly the world wasn't yet ready to go to the moon but that didn't prevent man from going to the moon when science and engineering improved.
G9dsj.jpg

You do know, that the program to build that rocket in the Soviet Union took nearly 20% of the GDP to fund and even then the rocket proved so unreliable and difficult to build that it had to be replaced by much better designs that took decades to perfect. The R-7 Semyorka was little more than an improved V-2 in terms of engine performance, using 5 engines in the first stage (4 being breakaway boosters), and another in the second. As a rocket, it relies more on crude engines and brute force than being an good design.

The first tractor - Clearly the world wasn't ready to stop using horses to pull plows but that didn't prevent tractors from becoming the machine to pull farm equipment when science and engineering improved.
https://www.farmcollector.com/steam-traction/first-steam-tractor-zm0z01sepzraw/

Tractors improved on horse drawn farm equipment markedly. So markedly that farmers saw the advantage and bought them. There is no particular advantage to buying a battery powered car other than possibly virtue signaling. Without large government subsidies, the vehicles wouldn't sell at all. There were no government subsidies for buying farm tractors back when that market first began to emerge.

I think we can all agree that man used boats of various kinds for centuries before one was ever able to cross an ocean.

Boats could cross oceans long ago. The issue wasn't the boat, it was navigation of it to a distant location. When a ship or boat gets out of sight of land, the crew has to have a way to navigate and reliably hold a course to a destination. The Polynesians figured out early means to navigate on open ocean for example.
https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringo...chniques to safely navigate the oceans. More

However, for most societies, open ocean navigation was fraught with danger. Getting lost was easy to do. It took invention of things like the astrolabe and chronometer to allow for navigation on open seas over long voyages.
Interestingly, the chronometer was something that was in a sense subsidized in a way that made sense. The British government in fact offered a prize of 20,000 pounds (about 3 million today) to the inventor of a successful timepiece. That didn't happen until the 18th century. There was no subsidy for production, just invention.
 
Argument from fallacy on your part. The world rejected batteries then for the same reason they should be rejected now. The cost of the vehicle is higher compared to internal combustion. The charging time is unacceptably long. The batteries don't last and are expensive to replace.
In fact, the Edison electric car was popular and a good seller until internal combustion engines running on gasoline began to compete with them. Then the practicality of gasoline motors demolished the battery car market.
Since then, they have been tried repeatedly each time failing. The only reason they are even marginally competitive today is that government is heavily subsidizing them. When the subsidies end, the battery car market ends.


Tractors improved on horse drawn farm equipment markedly. So markedly that farmers saw the advantage and bought them. There is no particular advantage to buying a battery powered car other than possibly virtue signaling. Without large government subsidies, the vehicles wouldn't sell at all. There were no government subsidies for buying farm tractors back when that market first began to emerge.

What fallacy are you accusing me of making?

The initial cost of an electric vehicle may be higher than that of an ICE vehicle but that ignores the total cost of the vehicle over its lifetime.
If we compare the 2022 basic Ford F-150 with the basic Ford F-150 Lightning, the cost over 10 years is likely less for the Lightning even though its purchase price is $10,000 more assuming 12,000 miles per year.
F-150 ICE - Cost $29,900, 10 years of oil changes - $1000, 2 complete brake jobs - $1200, 60,000 mile tuneup and other routine maintenance - $2500, 25mpg at 120,000 miles and $3 per gallon = $14,400. Total cost for the ICE vehicle - $48,800 over 10 years.
F-150 Lightning - Cost $39,974 - No oil changes or tuneups required. assume 1 brake job - $600, no 60,000 mile tuneup, air filters, radiator flushes etc, .5kwh per mile at 120,000 miles and .13 per kwh cost (US average is .105/kwh) = Total cost of $48,374
Even assuming electric is more expensive than it currently is and gas is cheaper than it currently is the Lightning still costs less over that 10 years. I also assumed the high end of the mpg for the ICE and the low end for the Lightning. I also didn't include the $7,500 tax credit in my calculations so your claim that when that goes away EVs will is horse shit. EVs are here to stay and their cost will come down.

Caredge lists the 10 year maintenance cost for an F-150 at just over $10,000. That means we have about $5,000 to spend on the Lightning before it costs more than the ICE version.

Charging at home every day takes less of the owner's time than it does to drive to a gas station 3 times a month to fill up the vehicle with gas. The F-150 will give more than 200 miles of driving with an overnight charge. It's rough that you don't sleep at night like other people. The average mileage for most people is less than 100 miles per day so the charging is not an issue for most people.

The batteries don't last is a red herring. ICE engines don't last forever nor do transmissions. 75 years ago it was rare for an ICE engine to survive to 100,000 miles without a ring job or other major repair. It seems you want to claim batteries have not gotten better at the same time you accept that ICE has improved.

Does that mean an EV will work for everyone today? No, I never said that. However it will work for the majority of the people starting today since the majority of people don't drive more than 100 miles per day and it will be cheaper for them in the long run. Amazon, UPS and other delivery companies aren't moving to EVs because they are getting subsidies. They are doing it because they see how it will save them money.
 
You are cherry picking your data.

I currently own two Nissan Frontier pick ups, a 2000, and a 2012. The 2000 has had a total maintenance cost of maybe, $5,000 if that on it. For example the water pump went at about 130,000 miles. I replaced that myself for less than $75 taking about 3 hours of time to perform (remove radiator shroud, belts, cooling fan, then the pump (like 9 bolts), install the new one and replace everything else.
Just did the brakes on the 2012 for the first time at about 90,000 miles. That cost me less than $100.
Both vehicles have exceeded the expected battery life of any EV, one at 21 years, the other at 9 and a bit.

I plan to continue to drive and use both, flogging them as I have like a three-dollar mule. I've taken them places frequently where there is no place you could charge an EV too.
So, my ICE trucks have cost way less than an EV. If you toss in one like Tesla where the electronics and software are unfathomable without tens of thousands of dollars worth of specialized test equipment making self-repairs virtually impossible, the cost of maintenance is far lower on the ICE vehicles.
 
You are cherry picking your data.

I currently own two Nissan Frontier pick ups, a 2000, and a 2012. The 2000 has had a total maintenance cost of maybe, $5,000 if that on it. For example the water pump went at about 130,000 miles. I replaced that myself for less than $75 taking about 3 hours of time to perform (remove radiator shroud, belts, cooling fan, then the pump (like 9 bolts), install the new one and replace everything else.
Just did the brakes on the 2012 for the first time at about 90,000 miles. That cost me less than $100.
Both vehicles have exceeded the expected battery life of any EV, one at 21 years, the other at 9 and a bit.

I plan to continue to drive and use both, flogging them as I have like a three-dollar mule. I've taken them places frequently where there is no place you could charge an EV too.
So, my ICE trucks have cost way less than an EV. If you toss in one like Tesla where the electronics and software are unfathomable without tens of thousands of dollars worth of specialized test equipment making self-repairs virtually impossible, the cost of maintenance is far lower on the ICE vehicles.

Have you considered that you are an exception? When GM released the Volt, they did an enormous study and found that 50 miles of range was sufficient for 85 percent of the people. Now EVs get 300 miles of charge and it goes up every year. There are also more charging stations being built by the government and privately. They are getting faster and faster.
Electric Cars are the future. You can cling to the past if you want to, but the Big 3 cannot afford to make that mistake.
 
Have you considered that you are an exception? When GM released the Volt, they did an enormous study and found that 50 miles of range was sufficient for 85 percent of the people. Now EVs get 300 miles of charge and it goes up every year. There are also more charging stations being built by the government and privately. They are getting faster and faster.
Electric Cars are the future. You can cling to the past if you want to, but the Big 3 cannot afford to make that mistake.

What makes electric cars "the future" other than government forcing them down people's throats? Would the EV movement be happening if government wasn't heavily subsidizing them while passing laws and regulations to force ICE vehicles out of service?
 
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