Reality check on electric cars

The electric technology is not new. They do not have sufficient dealer experts yet. That too will come.
So you are depending on dealer repairs for everything. EXPENSIVE!

A lot of shops won't work on 'em. Not even to change a tire. The batteries are quite dangerous, you see, and are easily damaged.
Every ICE has a lot of computer parts.
No. Older cars (that are still on the road!) have none.
They are not the mechanical beasts of the old days.
The mechanical beasts of the old days are still on the road!
The gas pedal does not function as it once did. It sends signals now. The chip shortage has impacted ICes.
You are describing new car designs, that use FADEC. Some brands are affected more than others. The chip shortage isn't overall. It is the custom chips that are short.
EVs require a LOT more electronics than an ICE car. Electronics are used not only to drive the car, control the motors, invert the power for supplying to the motors (that's a high powered oscillator no less!), charging circuitry, switching and throttle circuitry that is considerably more extensive than any ICE car requires, cameras and viewing enhancers, sensor systems not found on most cars (they don't need 'em), and a bunch of software to make it all work.

ICE cars have an ECU, an ODB2 interface, and the rest is optional. The electronic throttle simply consists of two potentiometers. No computer at all. That input is just another input on the ECU. The primary metering sensor is a mass airflow sensor, easily constructed with a piece of wire. Fuel pressure is metered with a simple spring. The injectors are basically just solenoids. Low voltage ignition systems are used now, eliminating the thick wires. Each cylinder has it's own transistor (easily obtained, even with shortages), a coil arranged as an autotransformer, and, of course, the spark plug and boot. The ECU determines the duty cycle of the injectors and the timing of the ignition system. The overall design is called 'FADEC' (Full Authority Digital Engine Control).

Everything else on an ICE car is only there because of government bullshit. This includes the catalytic converter, the evap sensor, the O1 and O2 sensors (all they do is trim for engine burn), the EGR system, etc.
Optional electronics provide sensors for L2 driver assist systems (same as on the Tesla), or optional equipment.
 
yep. ICEs are being electrified and computerized.
On what planet does arguing that EVs are more dependent on electronics matter? ICEs are rapidly changing away from what rights pretend is a big difference. The day of ICEs is over. They pollute like hell poisoning the environment. The technology is finally here to make them go the way of the Dino. Their fuel pollutes. The selling of the fuel pollutes. The digging up of the fuel pollutes. They pollute the air, land, and water. We are eliminating pollution pits that have pockets of sick people surrounding them.
 
What is FADEC? I'm not up on these one-letter abbreviations.

Full Authority Digital Engine Control.

Essentially, it's an engine that is controlled by a computer, including igniting timing and fuel metering. The engine cannot run at all without the computer.

Old school mechanics generally dislike FADEC because they don't understand it. They are used to tapping on carburetors and looking for leaks in them, and changing or adjusting distributor 'points' (the primary circuit switch) as they wear. However, FADEC has certain advantages:

* primary sensors are mass airflow (a simple heated wire and ohmmeter), crankshaft position (usually a hall effect sensor, looking for a missing tooth), camshaft position (hall effect sensor again), and accelerator position (dual potentiometer).
* secondary sensors include mass pressure (a secondary fuel metering trim sensor), two oxygen sensors (required by the government. O1 is fuel metering trim and O2 is a crosscheck to make sure the government required catalytic converter is working. An evap sensor to make sure your put your gas cap on and there are no air leaks in your fuel system (Subaru has a software bug on this).
* optional sensors are used for driver assist, such as LIDAR systems or cameras (including backup cameras), bluetooth detection so you can tie your cell phone into the entertainment system of the car, tire pressure sensors, traction sensors (usually just another hall effect measuring wheel rotation), etc.

If a fault develops in a sensor or in a component the sensor is monitoring, the computer will throw an error code and tell you what it thinks is wrong. These can be read by an ODB2 device, available for $20 at Walmart or an auto supply store for similar prices. These little guys are very good at pinpoint, say, an occasional misfire, and in what cylinder it's happening in. While detecting a dead cylinder is simple without a computer, detecting occasional misfires and where is harder without the sensors.

FADEC is much more efficient with gasoline than carburetors too. The reason is the multi-point fuel injection systems they use, and software that can more accurately handle acceleration, cruise, idle, and slowing conditions then the hackneyed stuff that were on carburetors to sort of do this.

Yeah. It's a computer. Yeah. It's running proprietary software. Yeah. It can be a pain to debug them when the computer itself goes wonky. But FADEC has it's advantages as well.
 
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yep. ICEs are being electrified and computerized.
Computerized, yes.
On what planet does arguing that EVs are more dependent on electronics matter?
Earth.
ICEs are rapidly changing away from what rights pretend is a big difference.
No. They are still internal combustion engines.
The day of ICEs is over.
No. You really need to get out more. Most folks on the road are driving ICE vehicles, with an occasional EV.
They pollute like hell poisoning the environment.
You have already admitted that EV's ppllute the environment.
The technology is finally here to make them go the way of the Dino. Their fuel pollutes.
Define 'pollution'.
The selling of the fuel pollutes.
Define 'pollution'.
The digging up of the fuel pollutes.
Define 'pollution'.
They pollute the air, land, and water.
Define 'pollution'.
We are eliminating pollution pits that have pockets of sick people surrounding them.
Define 'pollution'. What sick people?

Buzzword fallacies.
 
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Michigan manufacturer is hiring 1200 workers for their new battery manufacturing processes. Cadillac announced its new electric car line. Yeah, the Luddites can never catch on because they form a position and never change. The data and information is shed like rain from a macintosh.
 
Michigan manufacturer is hiring 1200 workers for their new battery manufacturing processes. Cadillac announced its new electric car line. Yeah, the Luddites can never catch on because they form a position and never change. The data and information is shed like rain from a macintosh.

I think their problem is the only people left in the Rust Belt are either too poor and stupid to take such jobs, or too rich and politically connected to take such jobs. The Middle Class has fled that portion of the country for more friendly locales...
 
Michigan manufacturer is hiring 1200 workers for their new battery manufacturing processes. Cadillac announced its new electric car line. Yeah, the Luddites can never catch on because they form a position and never change. The data and information is shed like rain from a macintosh.

Yeah. You'll never change, Luddite.

You will continue to waste your money on polluting EVs, dependent on limited supplies of materials. You will continue to spend much of your time recharging your car. You will continue to ignore what type of cars are on the road. You are stuck in the past. People have woken up to what you are. An arrogant SOB that thinks he is 'enlightened' when he is not. You still believe in fascism and communism even though it's shown that doesn't work countless times. You continue to make up numbers even though I've described that fallacy to you many times.

You'll never change, Luddite.
 
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Yeah. You'll never change, Luddite.

You will continue to waste your money on polluting EVs, dependent on limited supplies of materials. You will continue to spend much of your time recharging your car. You will continue to ignore what type of cars are on the road. You are stuck in the past. People have woken up to what you are. An arrogant SOB that thinks he is 'enlightened' when he is not.

Proving you do not know what a Luddite is. Nor are you versed in today's technology. I am not in the past. I embraced the future. You should buy a bicycle or horse. You will be kicking and dragging into the future.
 
Proving you do not know what a Luddite is. Nor are you versed in today's technology. I am not in the past. I embraced the future. You should buy a bicycle or horse. You will be kicking and dragging into the future.

I am. The only reason EV's are gaining any traction in the marketplace is heavy government subsidies and regulation. If government wasn't forcing these vehicles down people's throats they would barely sell at all. Like most things the government forces on the public, the outcome is likely to be bad, not good.
 
Full Authority Digital Engine Control.

Essentially, it's an engine that is controlled by a computer, including igniting timing and fuel metering. The engine cannot run at all without the computer.

Old school mechanics generally dislike FADEC because they don't understand it. They are used to tapping on carburetors and looking for leaks in them, and changing or adjusting distributor 'points' (the primary circuit switch) as they wear. However, FADEC has certain advantages:

* primary sensors are mass airflow (a simple heated wire and ohmmeter), crankshaft position (usually a hall effect sensor, looking for a missing tooth), camshaft position (hall effect sensor again), and accelerator position (dual potentiometer).
* secondary sensors include mass pressure (a secondary fuel metering trim sensor), two oxygen sensors (required by the government. O1 is fuel metering trim and O2 is a crosscheck to make sure the government required catalytic converter is working. An evap sensor to make sure your put your gas cap on and there are no air leaks in your fuel system (Subaru has a software bug on this).
* optional sensors are used for driver assist, such as LIDAR systems or cameras (including backup cameras), bluetooth detection so you can tie your cell phone into the entertainment system of the car, tire pressure sensors, traction sensors (usually just another hall effect measuring wheel rotation), etc.

If a fault develops in a sensor or in a component the sensor is monitoring, the computer will throw an error code and tell you what it thinks is wrong. These can be read by an ODB2 device, available for $20 at Walmart or an auto supply store for similar prices. These little guys are very good at pinpoint, say, an occasional misfire, and in what cylinder it's happening in. While detecting a dead cylinder is simple without a computer, detecting occasional misfires and where is harder without the sensors.

FADEC is much more efficient with gasoline than carburetors too. The reason is the multi-point fuel injection systems they use, and software that can more accurately handle acceleration, cruise, idle, and slowing conditions then the hackneyed stuff that were on carburetors to sort of do this.

Yeah. It's a computer. Yeah. It's running proprietary software. Yeah. It can be a pain to debug them when the computer itself goes wonky. But FADEC has it's advantages as well.

With that (expensive!) computer comes many sensors, as you've mentioned, and more things that can cause problems. Many race cars are computer operated (Top Fuel cars have been for years). I'm not in denial of that. Hell, my Hyundai has bluetooth and I have it hooked up. My point is the electronic throttle downright sucks. It's ok on the highway, but in stop 'n' go traffic, there sometimes is a severe hesitation if you're on and off the throttle. Another thing that sucks is the cost of the diagnostic equipment, most small garages can't afford it so you're stuck taking the car to a dealership that charges $100 right off to hook it up and $120 an hour labor to fix it. Pretty high price to pay when the "small" guy can fix it with the turn of a screw on a carburated engine.
I do, however, like the tire pressure sensors (when they don't get loaded with dirt and salt), maintaining proper tire pressure is very important.
 
Proving you do not know what a Luddite is. Nor are you versed in today's technology. I am not in the past. I embraced the future. You should buy a bicycle or horse. You will be kicking and dragging into the future.

The term 'Luddite' comes from a bunch of weavers in middle and upper England that started using this name to identify themselves. The spent a few years destroying machinery over fear it would put them out of work. The word first appeared around 1811. Today, the word generally refers to someone against automation or technology. This use of the word started around 1961.

You spurn internal combustion engine technology. That makes you a Luddite, in accordance with the 1961 use of the word.

EV's were invented in the past, not the future. EV's today have the same basic problems of EV's yesterday. They haven't really been solved:
* long charging times
* limited range
* weak performance
* heavy weight
* risk of class C fires
* use of limited resources and child labor to provide those resources, and use of resources only available from unfriendly nations.
* high cost
* requirement of power plant to recharge, which uses fuel.
* toxic waste not properly dealt with from mining materials (which you've already admitted to).

The internal combustion engine uses commonly available materials, using fuel that is readily available and is renewable and is more efficient, since no energy conversion is required except thermal energy -> mechanical energy, is a lot cheaper (and most cars on the road are ICE vehicles as a result), has the ability to handle and tow large loads, is easily refueled within minutes essentially giving this engine unlimited range, and modern FADEC designs are capable of much more efficient use of fuel and producing water and CO2 as an exhaust, with very little in the way of byproducts.

The internal combustion engine car is almost completely recyclable, and holds a good resale value, unlike the EV.

I am well versed in today's technology. I am an engineer and scientist. I design, build, and repair this stuff regularly. My company produces instrumentation for industrial, medical, automotive, aerospace, and entertainment industries. These products are sold all over the world.

It is YOU that is rejecting technology. It is YOU that is the Luddite (using the 1961 meaning).
 
I am. The only reason EV's are gaining any traction in the marketplace is heavy government subsidies and regulation. If government wasn't forcing these vehicles down people's throats they would barely sell at all. Like most things the government forces on the public, the outcome is likely to be bad, not good.

Bingo.

In America, for example, The Oligarchy dictates that you must pay taxes to support tax credits for EV users. Your taxes also go to buy EV charging stations, subsidies for EV production (including components like batteries), and even for the roads they use (which they don't pay for).

It is theft.

It is fascism, which is government manipulation of markets.

It is manipulation of the automotive and energy markets by government...by force.
 
With that (expensive!) computer
The computer is cheap. Very cheap. You can often replace it yourself and have the dealer program it for you. It's dealers that charge too much for the computer (typically about $800). It's about the same cost as replacing a distributor.
comes many sensors,
Only a few are required to run the engine. They are all simple in their construction. They are all pretty easy to replace if needed.
as you've mentioned, and more things that can cause problems.
If a sensor fails, the computer knows which one and tells you. Replacing them is pretty trivial.
Many race cars are computer operated (Top Fuel cars have been for years). I'm not in denial of that. Hell, my Hyundai has bluetooth and I have it hooked up.
Okay.
My point is the electronic throttle downright sucks. It's ok on the highway, but in stop 'n' go traffic, there sometimes is a severe hesitation if you're on and off the throttle.
Not the thottle's fault. Nor is the fault of FADEC. You probably have bad plugs or boots. Sometimes a fault in the cam advance system can cause this.
Another thing that sucks is the cost of the diagnostic equipment, most small garages can't afford it
$20 for an ODB2 tester is pretty cheap. It will cover almost everything you need.
so you're stuck taking the car to a dealership that charges $100 right off to hook it up and $120 an hour labor to fix it.
Don't need it. I do all the maintenance on my own cars. They are all FADEC designs. I have yet to take it to a dealer for anything.
Pretty high price to pay when the "small" guy can fix it with the turn of a screw on a carburated engine.
You can do the same thing on a FADEC car. They are not that difficult to work on. Turning the screw on a carburetor is just guessing. It may not fix the problem and only result in a misadjusted carburetor. BTW, I work on a lot of carburetor engines, and even rebuild the carburetors. I know what I am doing and generally don't need to adjust anything on them.
I do, however, like the tire pressure sensors (when they don't get loaded with dirt and salt), maintaining proper tire pressure is very important.
The sensor is not exposed, so they shouldn't get loaded up with dirt or salt. The wheel tone sensor (used for traction control systems and cruise control systems) is also not exposed, and also shouldn't get loaded up with dirt or salt.

Should either sensor fail, they are easily replaced.

Heck, I've repaired backup collision sensors with nothing more than a bit of superglue.


Don't be discouraged by the FADEC design or modern car design. Yeah, it's different than that '57 Chevy, but it's not hard to learn it. All it really means is learning what each system does and what each sensor does. You take it one step at a time, like a mouse eating an elephant. That scary looking wire harness coming out of the computer is just a collection of circuits. Learn them one at a time. Almost half of them are ground wires!

There's a wire going to each cylinder to fire the plug.
There's a wire going to each cylinder to fire the injector.
There's two or three wires going to your accelerator pedal.
There's a wire going to your crankshaft position sensor.
There's a wire going to your camshaft position sensor.
There's about 3 or 4 wires going to your mass airflow sensor.
That's it. That's all the critical stuff the computer needs to run the engine.

Fuel supply is dead simple. A pump brings up fuel pressure to somewhere between 30psi and 60psi. That is fed to the fuel rail serving all the injectors. There is a small gasket (kind of like an O ring) where they connect.
Pressure is maintained by a simple spring, draining excess fuel back to the tank. The computer fires each injector at or near the the time the intake valve is opening. No more fuel wasted along the induction system plumbing through condensation of fuel vapors.

Even the pollution control crap is pretty simple. The EGR system is just a pipe from the exhaust to the induction system, with a valve to prevent reverse flow on the negative pressure cycle in the exhaust. By feeding exhaust gasses into the induction system, you reduce the peak burn temperature in the cylinder, and any NOx gasses generated by high temperatures. It is the most effective method of preventing smog, and is cheap to implement. No computer is involved here, other than perhaps cycling the valve.

The fuel vapor controls are pretty simple too. Fuel vapors in the induction system are stowed in a nearby canister filled with activated charcoal when the engine is shut off. Starting the engine again sucks these vapors back out and essentially primes the induction system with fuel ready for the engine. It keeps fuel vapors from getting out into the atmosphere and causing smog.

Smog is unburned fuel (fuel vapors), ozone (generated by the engine itself or by the exposure of oxygen to sunlight), and NOx gasses. Eliminate just one of these, and you have eliminated the smog.
 
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The computer is cheap. Very cheap. You can often replace it yourself and have the dealer program it for you. It's dealers that charge too much for the computer (typically about $800). It's about the same cost as replacing a distributor.

Only a few are required to run the engine. They are all simple in their construction. They are all pretty easy to replace if needed.

If a sensor fails, the computer knows which one and tells you. Replacing them is pretty trivial.

Okay.

Not the thottle's fault. Nor is the fault of FADEC. You probably have bad plugs or boots. Sometimes a fault in the cam advance system can cause this.

$20 for an ODB2 tester is pretty cheap. It will cover almost everything you need.

Don't need it. I do all the maintenance on my own cars. They are all FADEC designs. I have yet to take it to a dealer for anything.

You can do the same thing on a FADEC car. They are not that difficult to work on. Turning the screw on a carburetor is just guessing. It may not fix the problem and only result in a misadjusted carburetor. BTW, I work on a lot of carburetor engines, and even rebuild the carburetors. I know what I am doing and generally don't need to adjust anything on them.

The sensor is not exposed, so they shouldn't get loaded up with dirt or salt. The wheel tone sensor (used for traction control systems and cruise control systems) is also not exposed, and also shouldn't get loaded up with dirt or salt.

Should either sensor fail, they are easily replaced.

Heck, I've repaired backup collision sensors with nothing more than a bit of superglue.


Don't be discouraged by the FADEC design or modern car design. Yeah, it's different than that '57 Chevy, but it's not hard to learn it. All it really means is learning what each system does and what each sensor does. You take it one step at a time, like a mouse eating an elephant. That scary looking wire harness coming out of the computer is just a collection of circuits. Learn them one at a time. Almost half of them are ground wires!

There's a wire going to each cylinder to fire the plug.
There's a wire going to each cylinder to fire the injector.
There's two or three wires going to your accelerator pedal.
There's a wire going to your crankshaft position sensor.
There's a wire going to your camshaft position sensor.
There's about 3 or 4 wires going to your mass airflow sensor.
That's it. That's all the critical stuff the computer needs to run the engine.

Fuel supply is dead simple. A pump brings up fuel pressure to somewhere between 30psi and 60psi. That is fed to the fuel rail serving all the injectors. There is a small gasket (kind of like an O ring) where they connect.
Pressure is maintained by a simple spring, draining excess fuel back to the tank. The computer fires each injector at or near the the time the intake valve is opening. No more fuel wasted along the induction system plumbing through condensation of fuel vapors.

Even the pollution control crap is pretty simple. The EGR system is just a pipe from the exhaust to the induction system, with a valve to prevent reverse flow on the negative pressure cycle in the exhaust. By feeding exhaust gasses into the induction system, you reduce the peak burn temperature in the cylinder, and any NOx gasses generated by high temperatures. It is the most effective method of preventing smog, and is cheap to implement. No computer is involved here, other than perhaps cycling the valve.

The fuel vapor controls are pretty simple too. Fuel vapors in the induction system are stowed in a nearby canister filled with activated charcoal when the engine is shut off. Starting the engine again sucks these vapors back out and essentially primes the induction system with fuel ready for the engine. It keeps fuel vapors from getting out into the atmosphere and causing smog.

Smog is unburned fuel (fuel vapors), ozone (generated by the engine itself or by the exposure of oxygen to sunlight), and NOx gasses. Eliminate just one of these, and you have eliminated the smog.

So then you like these new battery operated cars? Say what you will, the electronic gas pedal sucks!
Oh, and BTW, my car just turned over 20,000 miles, it should have no wear or adjustment issues whatsoever.
 
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