Reality check on electric cars
- Thread starter Stringfellow Hawk
- Start date
Let's discuss all the ICE engine parts that are not needed in an electric. Think how much resources are saved not making engine blocks, carburetors, and thousands of other parts. What an environmental miracle EVs are. Don't you Luddites ever feel foolish? You should. This is dig up shit and throw it at the wall hoping something sticks. It does not. EVs are in your future. Technology moves on.
Those "resources" are a lot of eliminated jobs, too. Fuck you environmentalists, I hope your power grids melt down.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
For sheer mass of materials involved, EV's easily use far more than an ICE vehicle. The proof of that is that they typically weigh about half-a-ton more than a comparable ICE vehicle does. So, the amount of 'stuff' that goes into an EV is greater than in an ICE vehicle.
Into the Night
Verified User
Why? Engine blocks don't need rare earths, cobalt, or lithium to make them.
It's not about saving resources. Saving resources means they are useless resources. Use them.
No car has a carburetor today. All cars ICE cars manufactured today are FADEC.
Nah. Just a few, really. A case, a crankshaft, some rods, and some pistons. Some bearing shells, an oil pump to lubricate it. Done. Both cars have a fuel source (EV's use a large and very expensive battery pack, remember? ICE cars use a nice cheap fuel tank, usually plastic). Both cars have a way of metering fuel (you want to control them, don't you?). Both cars have a way of getting rid of waste heat (did you know EV's have to cool their batteries AND their motors?). Both cars have a body, windshield and other windows, indicator lamps, headlights, computers, etc. Both cars have gears, though the ICE car has more of them.
The EV requires special parts not found on the ICE vehicle. Most notably is the battery pack, which requires difficult to get lithium, cobalt, and rare earths to manufacture, is VERY costly, and you have already admitted that mining these materials is destructive to the environment. Further, that battery pack is large and a serious fire hazard. Fire can result from a rock hitting it, exposure to water on the roadway, hitting a large speed bump or high centering, etc. Being a class C fire, it is not possible to put it out with water. Gasoline tanks are small and easily protected (except for notable stupidity like the Ford Pinto design!), and are not a major fire hazard. Refueling both cars has about the same hazard of fire, one being a class C fire, and the other a class B fire. That hazard is pretty small and generally only affects the stupid.
You can't dodge your way out of this one, dude.
You now figure that environmental damage is a 'miracle'????!?
Luddite? EV's are nothing new.
It HAS stuck and you are trying to ignore it.
EV's are in your past.
That it does. Gasoline cars became much more powerful than the EV, which is why people abandoned them except for a few specialized cases, such as some golf carts and some forklifts operating indoors. With the lithium-ion battery, EV's are making a comeback, but the same problems are still there. They are expensive. They take a long time to charge. They are weak. Yeah, technology has improved for the EV, but it hasn't solved any of it's real problems. Meanwhile, technology has improved for the ICE car as well. Engines are all FADEC now, no more inefficient carburetors and induction system hackery to run the engine. The CV transmission has improved too. It's now capable of handling small and mid-sized cars AND provide towing capability for them (not available in most EV's). Allison-style transmissions are now mostly used on larger trucks and cars, where you need the power. An EV can't do that.
Driver assist systems are becoming available for all cars, not just EV's. They are getting better and better too. I'm starting to see more and more L2 assist systems even as standard equipment. Technology moves on. It won't save the EV though. The problems with it's power train are inherent to the design.
One of those problems DESTROYED an entire container ship of luxury cars (including some EV's) at sea. The ship was lost due to battery fire in an EV. Fortunately, the crew abandoned ship safely and are all okay. They had no way to fight the fire.
Because of the hazardous nature of the lithium-ion batteries, strict conditions are placed on shipping them. In general, you cannot ship by air. Fire on board aircraft is no joke.
Yeah. I'll take the steel and aluminum parts. These materials are domestically available, easily smelted, and easily cast into parts using the simplest of methods.
Oh...BTW, the EV requires such parts too. You know...body...bearings...wheels...motors...wiring...etc.
Nah. Your argument falls flat. The EV isn't new. It's current battery is dangerous to handle and is exposed to road hazards. It's weak. It's expensive. It requires difficult to obtain materials that are available only in nations no necessarily friendly to us. It takes too long to recharge (refuel). Recharging them uses fuel such as oil or coal or natural gas to power the power plant.
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Into the Night
Verified User
I guess you haven't heard what environmentalists are systematically doing to Europe and in the SDTC. They are systematically dismantling their power generating plants. Now they are both short of power. The SDTC recently published an edict that you cannot charge your EV except during limited times.
Into the Night
Verified User
Quite right. That 'stuff' also requires more energy to move. F=mA.
A Tesla Model 3 has a curb weight of 3760 lbs! That's as much as a truck!
A similar sized ICE car, such as a Subaru Impreza, has a curb weight of only 3130 lbs.
Lithium batteries are the lightest battery ever made. That's how much the battery back adds to the weight of the car! AND they have no engine (just traction motors) and no transmission (other than simple fixed gearing for the motors)!!!!
Those 'light' batteries weigh MORE then the weight of a similar sized car that has an engine and transmission!!!
All made from difficult to obtain materials too!
Oh...that's also the reason the Tesla Model 3 can't tow anything, while the Subaru Impreza can (it can easily handle a light utility trailer with a modest load).
Into the Night
Verified User
ICE cars as they are now are new.
Nah. I don't lie. You just ignore everything presented to you and drop back to your religion.
I have documented all of my numbers. They come from the car manufacturers themselves and materials production industries themselves. You just ignore it.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
A large electric motor can weigh more than a similar sized ICE engine too. Electric motors are almost solid masses of steel and copper. Copper is much heavier than steel or aluminum. Most ICE engines today are largely a combination of aluminum and even plastic rather than steel.
A 200 hp electric motor, depending on the exact configuration will weigh between about 2000 to 2500 lbs. on its own. A V8 engine producing about the same hp will weigh in at around 800 lbs., and a four-cylinder producing 200 hp., at around half that. The battery pack in a Tesla weighs over 1000 lbs.
Physics says more weight = more energy used to move that weight. Since energy is energy, whether you get it from a battery or gasoline makes no difference. Thus in the case of battery cars, they require more energy input to move the car a specific distance than a gasoline car that is similar but lighter in weight. Of course, I'm not accounting for waste heat and energy here, just the energy needed to actually move the vehicle.
Thus, it might--and likely is--a better move to lighten ICE vehicles further than go to batteries. Less pollution involved.
A 200 hp electric motor, depending on the exact configuration will weigh between about 2000 to 2500 lbs. on its own. A V8 engine producing about the same hp will weigh in at around 800 lbs., and a four-cylinder producing 200 hp., at around half that. The battery pack in a Tesla weighs over 1000 lbs.
Physics says more weight = more energy used to move that weight. Since energy is energy, whether you get it from a battery or gasoline makes no difference. Thus in the case of battery cars, they require more energy input to move the car a specific distance than a gasoline car that is similar but lighter in weight. Of course, I'm not accounting for waste heat and energy here, just the energy needed to actually move the vehicle.
Thus, it might--and likely is--a better move to lighten ICE vehicles further than go to batteries. Less pollution involved.
EVs weigh more because batteries are heavy. They are far simpler to make.,with many fewer parts and complicated things to break. They are far more reliable too. Battery components are also reclaimable.https://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Mechanically, maybe. In terms of controls and operation, no. EV's are more complex. For example, on a Tesla, each battery module requires a circuit board, multiple thermocouples, a complex cooling coil installation all to keep the batteries at a certain temperature range 24/7. Doesn't matter if the car is charging, being used, or just sitting. It requires this system of coolant, pumps, and electronics work continuously to protect the batteries from damage.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...hen it comes to maintenance,... getting to $7.
The electric technology is not new. They do not have sufficient dealer experts yet. That too will come.
Every ICE has a lot of computer parts. They are not the mechanical beasts of the old days. The gas pedal does not function as it once did. It sends signals now. The chip shortage has impacted ICes.
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T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
The difference is that an ICE vehicle doesn't really need masses of electronics to work. The EV's do. They need technology to manage the battery pack. They need electronics to manage recharging the battery. They need electronics to manage the electric motor(s). The whole drive train is utterly dependent on them. Not so with an ICE vehicle. Yes, electronics can improve them, but they aren't necessarily dependent on them either.
My new (well it's 3 years old now) Hyundai has one of those electronic gas pedals...and it sucks! I hate it!
yep, the future is here.
As I said, the electronic gas pedal sucks!
Into the Night
Verified User
The electric motor on a Tesla Model 3 weights 210 lbs. There are two of them. Tesla uses synchronous motors now, rated at 380v. Tesla claims 825hp using the two motors, resulting in approx 157A. This is obviously very hard on the batteries to provide that much current for long. Fortunately, people don't generally stomp on the accelerator and hold it in a Tesla. Each motor uses a simple transmission to transmit power to the wheels. This requires transmission fluid (ATF I believe). The brake lines uses DOT-4 fluid, like many modern cars. A coolant is also used for the battery pack, as it is liquid cooled, and that goes to a radiator, much like the motor requires. The battery pack is also using air cooling, using undercarriage air. This exposes the battery pack to road debris and water damage (cars have burned this way). The battery pack (less coolant) weighs in at a around 900 lbs for the standard range battery pack. The long range option weighs in at 1060 lbs.
The motors in a Tesla require that you change the oil periodically, along with the oil filter. These motors are oil cooled, using a radiator. The combined power plant (less the batteries, oil, filter, and radiator assembly) weighs in at 450 lbs. The battery coolant must also be changed periodically. Failure to do so can result in permanent battery failure. A plugged or leaking radiator can result in permanent motor or battery damage, or both.
No. These are not induction motors. These are synchronous motors. The entire motor assembly weight is given above. This weight has been verified by independent shops as well.
A similar sized car does not need a V8 engine. A flat 4 is just fine. The Subaru Impreza boxer engine produces 376hp and weighs 195 lbs. It's a flat 4 design.
The Ford 5.4 Triton engine (a V8 design) weighs in at 510 lbs for the complete engine. It can produce 550hp. It uses an aluminum case and pistons, steel crank and valvetrain assemblies, sodium filled exhaust valves (steel casing), and iconel exhaust components. The induction system is primarily plastic and aluminum.
About 900 lbs for a standard range model 3, and 1060 lbs for a long range model (dry weight, not counting the coolant).
There are two primary coolant systems on a Tesla, both requiring a pump and radiator. One for the battery pack, and one for the motor assembly. Both the fluid and oil filter need to be changed periodically.
Tesla uses a steel frame. Steel is necessary because aluminum isn't strong enough to support the battery pack. The motor assembly is also bolted to the rear cross member on this frame. Mount points support the body to the frame, and all interior components including the seats are bolted to the body.
Already plastic radiators are in use. People hate 'em. Some spigot snaps off and they figure the radiator is toast. It's actually much easier to repair than the old brass and solder radiators and it weighs less. It is simple to epoxy the thing back together and even reinforce the repair if necessary using fiberglass. You can get everything you need from a boating supply shop. I prefer the West Epoxy system for this. I use the stuff to build and repair aircraft as well. Pistons have been aluminum for a long time because the lighter weight is easier for a reciprocating object. The cylinder walls are steel, and a softer alloy is used for the rings. The rods are case hardened steel, and so is the crank.
The gears in both an ICE car and in the Tesla are case hardened steel.
Lighter isn't necessarily better. You want a tractor, for example, to be heavy. Indeed, the rear tires on many tractors are filled with liquid, not air, to specifically make the machine heavier. Weights are added to the rear as well. This allows the tractor to pick up a hefty load with it's bucket. Of course, you aren't looking for mileage on a tractor.
You want a truck to be heavier as well, since it improves traction and better stability when towing.
Of course, a Tesla is neither a tractor nor a practical truck.
Into the Night
Verified User
Not practical to recycle. It costs MORE to recycle the batteries than to just simply make new ones. The lead-acid cell, however, is completely recyclable. The ICE car is indeed one of the most recycled items in existence. If the old tires do not have damaged sidewalls, they can be retreaded. Lead-acid batteries can be washed out, new acid added, and they will perform for another few years. You can also just put 'em in a grinder, dump the mess in water, and skim off the plastic, and then gather the lead, melt it down, and make a new lead-acid battery. A 'junk' car can be taken to a wrecking yard where they sell pretty much every part. The remaining shell is then crushed, melted down, and used to build another car.
As far as 'reliable', all my cars are reliable. I have no EVs. Should I decide to sell one, I will get great resale for it. That doesn't happen with EVs, since few people want to buy a car with a used battery pack.
There a lots of complicated things to break on a Tesla Model 3, for a few examples:
* a leak can develop in one of the coolant systems.
* a plug can develop in one of the radiator assemblies.
* a motor can burn out.
* a motor driver can burn out.
* the motor controller assembly can burn out.
* the computer can burn out.
* displays can go bad.
* windows can jam or fail to operate.
* tires may go flat or wear out and need replacement.
* rocks, water, or high centering can DESTROY the battery (a $25000 fix!). That's assuming, of course that a battery fire does not result (pretty easy to happen!) and destroy the entire car.
* upholstery can be damaged or soiled, requiring maintenance or replacement.
* wiring can fail.
* Overheating can occur, possibly permanently damaging the motors or the battery pack.
* suspension or steering system damage can occur.
* critters can get in and make a home, causing damage to wiring, ventilation or coolant systems, or direct damage to the battery pack.
* accidents.
* the charging plug may get damaged.
* the charger may burn out.
* the inverter assembly in the car may burn out.
* software may have bugs in it. (I haven't yet found a car computer that didn't have bugs in it's software!).
* the driver assist sensors may fail.
* any of the cameras or viewing systems can fail.
* a door lock may freeze up in inclement conditions or because of damage.