Reality check on electric cars

[Lionfish]

 

[T. A. Gardner]

And now a word from an expert on the radical Left...

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Into the Night]

No closed system is 100% efficient, so if you have a system, like a heat pump, that is 300% to 500% efficient, you know there is "cheating" going on. The "cheating" in the case of the heat pump is that the heat pump is not creating the heat. The heat pump is moving the heat that already exists from the outside to the inside, which is more efficient than creating the heat. So heat pumps have 300% to 500% efficiency, with "cheating".

But, as a home owner, I do not care if the heat pump cheats. It is all saving for me.



Maybe 50 years ago, but these days heat pumps work well down to almost 20ºF. At that point, you want to have electric heating. Electric heating is not very efficient, because it includes the loss of efficiency of the transmission lines. That said, in almost the entire lower 48 states, there is enough time in the year over 20ºF that heat pumps/electric heating are the most efficient heating solution...

Except for heat pumps where you grab heat from the ground. That requires a huge amount of piping underground, but as long as the average yearly temperature is above 30ºF, you are going to be able to use solely heat pump year round.

There is another cost efficiency hidden in there that electricity can come from whatever source is cheapest at the moment. The system really does not care. While most other heating solutions involve oil, natural gas, or some other specific source.

Heat pumps cost more to install than a conventional furnace, but less to install than a conventional furnace and central air conditioning. So you just get a more comfortable home year round, and lots of savings.

Heat pumps ARE air conditioning. They still require a conventional furnace, even in mild climates like that found in the PNW.

 

[Into the Night]

You really don't know what you're talking about here. Most of Europe has gone to pellet stoves because heat pumps don't work and are not cost effective. Some geothermal (heat exchange from deep wells in the ground) heating has been tried, but in places like Germany the geology makes this dangerously impractical.


https://www.odditycentral.com/news/...rt-due-to-geothermal-drilling-gone-wrong.html

That's one example. So, geothermal is not always a possible solution.

https://www.nordicghp.com/2017/01/heat-pump-effective-temperature-range/

Geothermal also takes up more ground between installations, so it is impractical for use in a compact city setting unless you centralize the system (like they did in Germany to the detriment of the whole town).


https://cagleservice.com/what-temperature-range-are-heat-pumps-effective/


https://www.linquip.com/blog/what-temperature-is-a-heat-pump-not-effective/

So, experts agree with me (also an expert), below 40 F regularly means you need to add heat strips or a gas pack to your heat pump.

Heat pumps are just another way of heating a building. Most medium sized buildings have them today (usually mounted on the roof). Larger buildings have several of them. They also have that ole' boiler in the basement too, fired by coal, methane, or oil.

Pellet stoves are cheap and effective. Heat pumps are more expensive and a more practical solution then pellet stoves for medium to large modern buildings.

His use of the word 'pollution' is undefined. To him, it's a Holy Word...meaningless chanting. I am going to assume he means CO2 at this point. Heat pumps do not reduce CO2 generated. This is the same BS as electric cars. Walt doesn't understand the concept of TANSTAAFL.

 

[Into the Night]

Wood pellets are a scam.

What is the scam??????!? Wood pellets are easy to manufacture and easy to use. Most are made from waste products at sawmills.

The problem Europeans have with heat pumps is they require putting new ducts in a building, which is a pain in the neck for old buildings.

Somehow you think that ignoring this cost is a solution.

Wood pellets use huge government subsidies to pretend to be green, but are literally a waste of time.

Thermal energy is not time. Who are you to decide what form of energy someone decides to buy????

Not what it says. It says you need to start using additional heating at 25ºF, not 40ºF. It does say that it starts reducing efficiency at 40ºF. So at 40ºF you get 500% efficiency, and at 30ºF you get 300% efficiency... That is less than before, but still 3 times better a conventional furnace.

A wood pellet stove IS a conventional furnace!

 

[Into the Night]

Heh. At least the machine actually managed to feather the blades once it sensed the vibration building before it broke apart!

 

[Walt]

Heat pumps ARE air conditioning. They still require a conventional furnace, even in mild climates like that found in the PNW.

Heat pumps work like air conditioning, but are not always air conditioning. It depends on whether they can transport heat out of the house, or just into the house. Many heat pumps in places like England do not bother to transport heat out of the house.

Heat pumps do not require alternative heating as long as the temperature stays above 25ºF. That works well if the heat is being drawn from the ground, but it requires a lot of piping to be laid under the ground.

Alternative heating is usually just electric heating, and not a furnace. I live in Pennsylvania, and do not have a furnace. My house is always a reasonable temperature, for much cheaper than if I had a furnace.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Heat pumps work like air conditioning, but are not always air conditioning. It depends on whether they can transport heat out of the house, or just into the house. Many heat pumps in places like England do not bother to transport heat out of the house.

Heat pumps do not require alternative heating as long as the temperature stays above 25ºF. That works well if the heat is being drawn from the ground, but it requires a lot of piping to be laid under the ground.

Alternative heating is usually just electric heating, and not a furnace. I live in Pennsylvania, and do not have a furnace. My house is always a reasonable temperature, for much cheaper than if I had a furnace.

Heat pumps in essence are simply an air conditioner run in reverse. Electric or gas heating is added to a heat pump in the form of electric heat strips

or a gas pack.

These provide additional heat when the temperature falls below about 40 F outside. Where I live in Phoenix, heat pumps are common because you have air conditioning in any case.

 

[Into the Night]

Heat pumps work like air conditioning, but are not always air conditioning.

Nope. They ARE air conditioning. Always.

It depends on whether they can transport heat out of the house, or just into the house.

Irrelevant. They are still air conditioning. Always.

Many heat pumps in places like England do not bother to transport heat out of the house.

Then why install one? Apparently England hasn't figured out how to install a couple of valves.

Heat pumps do not require alternative heating as long as the temperature stays above 25ºF.

Depends on the size of the heat pump.

That works well if the heat is being drawn from the ground, but it requires a lot of piping to be laid under the ground.

Irrelevant. Apparently you have never seen the heat pumps mounted on the roofs of office buildings.

Alternative heating is usually just electric heating, and not a furnace.

So...no ductwork. How does your heat pump work then???????!?

I live in Pennsylvania, and do not have a furnace. My house is always a reasonable temperature, for much cheaper than if I had a furnace.

I think you are making the entire thing up. Too much stuff in your story is conflicting.

 

[Into the Night]

Heat pumps in essence are simply an air conditioner run in reverse. Electric or gas heating is added to a heat pump in the form of electric heat strips

or a gas pack.

These provide additional heat when the temperature falls below about 40 F outside. Where I live in Phoenix, heat pumps are common because you have air conditioning in any case.

Nice image of a typical heater used with smaller heat pumps. No...a heat pump IS an air conditioner, whether you are using it to heat a house or to cool it. It's the same machine.

 

[Walt]

Nope. They ARE air conditioning. Always.

Heat pumps move heat from one place to another. Air conditioners are heat pumps that move heat from the inside of a building to the outside of the building. Refrigerators are heat pumps that move heat from the inside of a box to the outside. There are also heat pumps that move heat from outside a building to inside the building, thereby heating the building at three to five times the efficiency of a normal furnace (but only in temperatures that are not very cold).

If you are heating your house through a heat pump, it only makes sense to also air condition the house... But in some places where it usually does not get very hot in the summer, they do not bother. It is not unheard of for the English to not bother with air conditioning.

They are also using heat pumps for clothes dryers. Obviously, there is no point in air conditioning clothing.

Irrelevant.

Heat pumps can pump heat from the air outside, or the ground outside. Because the ground does not get as cold, a heat pump will work better pumping heat from the ground. The problem is that you must lay a huge amount of piping under the ground. This costs a lot of money to install, and is a lot of points of failure, but it will work better.

These are engineering decisions that appear to be well past Night's limited grasp of reality.

So...no ductwork.

I definitely have ductwork, just no furnace. I have two heat pumps, with electrical alternative heating built in. If I am willing to be cold when it is 20ºF outside, I can just use the heat pump. It will be like 55º to 60º with just the heat pump. I like it warm, so I use alternative heating, and it never goes below 68º in my house. I will use a space heater to keep it up at 70º in my office.

I hate the cold, but I have met plenty of people in my travels around the world who would be happy with 55º on the coldest of winter days. In fact, traditionally Europeans avoided having pipes through hallways, because up until the 1900's they assumed anywhere not a bedroom, or bathroom would go below freezing during part of the year.

 

[Into the Night]

Heat pumps move heat from one place to another.

Heat is not movable. Heat is not contained in anything. Obviously, you don't know what 'heat' means.

Air conditioners are heat pumps that move heat from the inside of a building to the outside of the building.

Heat is not contained in anything. You are trying to say that a heat pump is not an air conditioner, now you are saying it is. Paradox. You are being quite irrational.

Refrigerators are heat pumps that move heat from the inside of a box to the outside.

Heat is not contained inside any box.

There are also heat pumps that move heat from outside a building to inside the building, thereby heating the building

You cannot put heat inside a building. Heat is not contained in anything.

at three to five times the efficiency of a normal furnace (but only in temperatures that are not very cold).

You are making up numbers. You cannot create energy out of nothing.

If you are heating your house through a heat pump, it only makes sense to also air condition the house...

But apparently you don't have any sense, and according to you, neither to the English.

But in some places where it usually does not get very hot in the summer, they do not bother. It is not unheard of for the English to not bother with air conditioning.

So you are saying the English are too stupid to use a couple of valves.

They are also using heat pumps for clothes dryers. Obviously, there is no point in air conditioning clothing.

Sure there is. Air conditioners dry the air.

Heat pumps can pump heat from the air outside, or the ground outside. Because the ground does not get as cold, a heat pump will work better pumping heat from the ground.

Heat is not contained in anything. You can't take heat out of the ground. Heat has no temperature.

The problem is that you must lay a huge amount of piping under the ground.

If you want to use the ground as your heat source, it doesn't take a lot of piping.

This costs a lot of money to install, and is a lot of points of failure, but it will work better.

Underground piping works just fine. See your average septic tank installation or street sewer, water, gas, and drainage systems.

These are engineering decisions that appear to be well past Night's limited grasp of reality.

Chanting Holy Words doesn't help you. You have already demonstrated you have no idea what the word 'reality' even means.

I definitely have ductwork, just no furnace. I have two heat pumps, with electrical alternative heating built in. If I am willing to be cold when it is 20ºF outside, I can just use the heat pump. It will be like 55º to 60º with just the heat pump. I like it warm, so I use alternative heating, and it never goes below 68º in my house. I will use a space heater to keep it up at 70º in my office.

You have TWO heat pumps now??????????!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AND a space heater????????!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I hate the cold, but I have met plenty of people in my travels around the world who would be happy with 55º on the coldest of winter days. In fact, traditionally Europeans avoided having pipes through hallways, because up until the 1900's they assumed anywhere not a bedroom, or bathroom would go below freezing during part of the year.

So you have met plenty of people that are miserable. Gotit.

You're making shit up, dude!

 

[Walt]

Heat is not movable. Heat is not contained in anything.

Then both heat pumps and insulation are impossible. I spent some money on both, turns out I was ripped off... If I believe you.

You have TWO heat pumps now??????????!?

That is perfectly normal. It is about 3,000 square feet, two story house. Different levels of the house have different heat pumps. Two different thermostats. Furnaces need to be as big as possible for efficiency, but heat pumps not so much.

AND a space heater????????!?

The rest of my family likes their winter heat to be at 68ºF, I prefer at least 70ºF, if not 72ºF. Space heaters are cheap. That is not so impressive.

You are making up numbers. You cannot create energy out of nothing.

No closed system can be over 100% efficient, but heat pumps are not closed systems. Where a furnace is almost, but not quite 100% efficient, a heat pump working in a good temperature is between 300% and 500% efficient. The way it does this is it is not a closed system. It is not creating the heat, like a furnace, but just moving the heat from the outside.

So you have met plenty of people that are miserable. Gotit.

Traditional Europeans (especially Northern Europeans) wear a lot of heavy clothing. This keeps them warmer, and they would prefer to be in cooler houses. I like to wear t-shirts and shorts even in the Winter, so I prefer a much warmer house.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Nice image of a typical heater used with smaller heat pumps. No...a heat pump IS an air conditioner, whether you are using it to heat a house or to cool it. It's the same machine.

That's an electric heating pack that's added to heat pumps--air conditioners--in colder areas of the country. Another total scam add is the company installing the unit will want you to add a "filter" for organic stuff in the air to make your home supposedly cleaner. This amounts to a UV black light installed in the air conditioner. Not worth it. Use a better quality filter and change it more often.

 

[Into the Night]

Then both heat pumps and insulation are impossible.
I spent some money on both, turns out I was ripped off... If I believe you.

Are you REALLY going to make this argument again????????!? You just don't have any clue what the word 'heat' even means or what insulation or heat pumps do.

That is perfectly normal. It is about 3,000 square feet, two story house. Different levels of the house have different heat pumps. Two different thermostats. Furnaces need to be as big as possible for efficiency, but heat pumps not so much.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What moron rigged the HVAC in YOUR place???????!? You???

The rest of my family likes their winter heat to be at 68ºF, I prefer at least 70ºF, if not 72ºF. Space heaters are cheap. That is not so impressive.

Space heaters ain't cheap. Ya gotta plug 'em in, dumbass.

No closed system can be over 100% efficient, but heat pumps are not closed systems.

YES THEY ARE!

Where a furnace is almost, but not quite 100% efficient, a heat pump working in a good temperature is between 300% and 500% efficient.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No, you cannot create energy out of nothing!

The way it does this is it is not a closed system.

Heat pumps ARE a closed system, dude.

It is not creating the heat, like a furnace, but just moving the heat from the outside.

You can't move heat from outside. Heat is not contained in anything. Heat pumps create heat. That is the purpose of the machine whether it's heating or cooling your house (or other building).

Traditional Europeans (especially Northern Europeans) wear a lot of heavy clothing. This keeps them warmer, and they would prefer to be in cooler houses. I like to wear t-shirts and shorts even in the Winter, so I prefer a much warmer house.

So now you are saying ALL Europeans are too stupid to use a couple of valves. Before it was just the English. Now it's ALL Europeans?????!? WTF is a 'traditional' European???????!?

 

[Into the Night]

That's an electric heating pack that's added to heat pumps--air conditioners--in colder areas of the country. Another total scam add is the company installing the unit will want you to add a "filter" for organic stuff in the air to make your home supposedly cleaner. This amounts to a UV black light installed in the air conditioner. Not worth it. Use a better quality filter and change it more often.

I'm quite familiar with such a heating pack. You are quite right. They are usually set to turn on when it drops to below 40 deg F outside air temperature (as measured at the compressor box).
The 'organic stuff' is just pollen and dust. No UV light is going to remove that! Yeah...sounds like a scam to me! I've also seen this scam pulled before in many ways. Filters are cheap and easy to replace.