Ron Paul and the Alabama straw poll

[blackascoal]

The title of civil libertarian makes no distinction on economic views.

Not all libertarians have neo-liberal economic views.

Even if you prefer to call Feingold a "liberal", his particular views on civil liberties makes him a civil libertarian.

He's been endorsed by the Democratic Freedom Caucus (a very small libertarian wing of the Democratic Party) and receives an 89 most recently from the ACLU.

If it would be helpful to illustrate this perspective, consider that I also see George Orwell a kind of libertarian, and he's a socialist! The first people to use the label libertarian were socialists, even. That's because these guys were opposed to the kind of centralized power that leads to authoritarian states and societies.

What you're arguing makes no sense.

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian? That makes no sense.

Look at his voting record above and explain how anyone who believes in government, even expanding government, can be a libertarian .. unless your point is that everybody is a libertarian .. which would be ridiculous.

The ACLU gives high ratings to a lot of liberals, who are not libertarians.

 

[Timshel]

What you're arguing makes no sense.

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian? That makes no sense.

No, that is what you are saying on Boortz. No one has claimed Feingold is a libertarian. The argument is he is pretty much a "civil libertarian."

Your arguming a strawman that you yourself support. It's laughable.

 

[blackascoal]

If you find the proposition laughable it is only because you cannot see that the word libertarian, regardless of its application, moves in a single direction toward more freedom and limited government.

The word liberal used to mean this too, and I only wish that it still did.

Semantics notwithstanding ...

The political perspective of liberalism was never meant to be about the individual. It is now and has always been about the collective .. that's why consefvatives like to call us "socialists"

 

[blackascoal]

At once you are claiming, that Feingold cannot be called a civil libertarian because he disagrees on economics whil arguing that Boortz is a full libertarian, even though he disagrees on military, foreign and many other substantive issues. Your argument defeats itself. It is is illogical, incoherent and inconsistent.

What is illogical has been listening to libertarians trying to define what libertarianism is. You don't seem to know. I had to educate you.

You can call Feingold whatever the hell you want, but his politics are liberal, not libertarian. I don't give a damn about full. partial, quarter, big "L", little "l" definitions of libertarians. What matters is the most of their political perspectives are delusional as is their impact on this society.

 

[uscitizen]

What you're arguing makes no sense.

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian? That makes no sense.

Look at his voting record above and explain how anyone who believes in government, even expanding government, can be a libertarian .. unless your point is that everybody is a libertarian .. which would be ridiculous.

The ACLU gives high ratings to a lot of liberals, who are not libertarians.

Just trying to expand their base BAC.
A sales tactic.

 

[Cancel7]

One of the first threads that BAC posted was about R. Paul. That was when the influx started.

So you're saying that because bac once put up a thread about ron paul, Adam and RS and other libertarians all ran over here from FP to, two months later, keep putting up threads about Ron Paul?

 

[Cancel7]

lol, then you did not understand. The first was mocking.

Mocking who, me? Is it because I said I thought iblib had good posts on this thread?

He did.

Wow, and they say women are sensitive huh?

 

[Damocles]

So you're saying that because bac once put up a thread about ron paul, Adam and RS and other libertarians all ran over here from FP to, two months later, keep putting up threads about Ron Paul?

No, I am saying a person complaining about the number of R. Paul threads seems to be posting a number of them himself.

 

[Cancel7]

What you're arguing makes no sense.

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian? That makes no sense.

Look at his voting record above and explain how anyone who believes in government, even expanding government, can be a libertarian .. unless your point is that everybody is a libertarian .. which would be ridiculous.

The ACLU gives high ratings to a lot of liberals, who are not libertarians.

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian?

Yeah, that has always annoyed the hell out of me about Libertarians. They always say, oh, you're a social Libertarian. Oh, I am? Or maybe you're a social liberal, did you ever think of that?

It's just really representative of their overall arrogance.

 

[Timshel]

What is illogical has been listening to libertarians trying to define what libertarianism is. You don't seem to know. I had to educate you.

You have not provided me any new information other than the fact that you either cannot read or enjoy using strawmen. Are you midcan?

You can call Feingold whatever the hell you want, but his politics are liberal, not libertarian.

Once again, I did not call him a libertarian. Want to offer an honest argument?

I don't give a damn about full. partial, quarter, big "L", little "l" definitions of libertarians. What matters is the most of their political perspectives are delusional as is their impact on this society.

Ummm, we are not currently arguing policies. You are arguing that Boortz, is a LIBERTARIAN though he disagrees in substantial ways, and Feingold may not even be called a "civil libertarian" though he agrees in substantial ways. Your argument is stupid and falls on its own.

 

[Damocles]

Is your point that anyone who shares any idea with a libertarian is thus a libertarian?

Yeah, that has always annoyed the hell out of me about Libertarians. They always say, oh, you're a social Libertarian. Oh, I am? Or maybe you're a social liberal, did you ever think of that?

It's just really representative of their overall arrogance.

Or it is an expansion of an idea that can more accurately describe a political affiliation than the extremely limited "right" or "left". Political views are not either or, they are myriad and often can fit better into a 3D graph than one based on a line.

 

[blackascoal]

That was a lot of work and words wasted on a pathetic strawman. I did not claim Feingold was a libertarian. I said he was a civil libertarian. Perhaps you are ignorant of the term?

No, you seem ignorant of meaning. Calling Feingold a "civil liberatrian" doesn't mean shit. Review his voting record .. which you didn't know.

Yeah, he is a dumbass Republican who can't stomach their spending so he falsely claims to be a libertarian.

The Libertarian Party has lots of dumb ass republicans. Who made you the Oracle of Libertarianism?

You have yet to post anything that would indicate that need. Liberventionist is obviously a term used to set them outside libertarianism.

The call themselves libertarians, but YOU, the Oracle, have the ability to pull their libertarian card because they don't meet the Stringfield standard?

Sure there were. But there was quite a shift in 06.

There still are and your pipe dream that libertarians turned the '06 elections borders on the completely insane.

Demonstrate how this would be when national libertarians candidates get no more than 0000000000000000.05% of the vote?

 

[Timshel]

Since you and the other idiots seem to think there is some sort of conspiracy carried out by libertarians to claim Feingold, maybe you should all educate yourselves.

oops...
http://www.google.com/search?q=feingold+"civil+libertarian"&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

 

[Cancel7]

Or it is an expansion of an idea that can more accurately describe a political affiliation than the extremely limited "right" or "left". Political views are not either or, they are myriad and often can fit better into a 3D graph than one based on a line.

BS. It's one more way to discredit the left. As if nothing that was leftist could be a good position.

Well guess what?

The left in this country saw bush coming from 10 miles out, and they saw the patriot act coming, and they saw the Iraqi debacle coming, and they have stood up loudly and defended civil rights from the bush adminstration's onslaught, and thanks for your magnanimity, but not all of us are jumping up and down squealing with delight over you showing your approval by labeling us libertarians of any kind.

 

[uscitizen]

Right on Darla. Libertarians are to a large extent just embaressed republicans.

 

[Damocles]

BS. It's one more way to discredit the left. As if nothing that was leftist could be a good position.

Well guess what?

The left in this country saw bush coming from 10 miles out, and they saw the patriot act coming, and they saw the Iraqi debacle coming, and they have stood up loudly and defended civil rights from the bush adminstration's onslaught, and thanks for your magnanimity, but not all of us are jumping up and down squealing with delight over you showing your approval by labeling us libertarians of any kind.

Rubbish. There are libertarians that lean left, those that lean right. It is simply an extension of the graph from a line to a superfacia...

Just as there are "moderate" Rs and Ds, that don't just fit on the line graph.

It is a sign of the success of those who wish to paint all libertarian thought into the "crazies" like the Libertarian Party is run by that nobody will claim any understanding with those whose opinions run along those lines. It is an attempt to "distance" those whom they may agree with whose opinions may run along the lines of libertarian.

They can't be libertarian, they aren't "nutjobs".

 

[blackascoal]

Or it is an expansion of an idea that can more accurately describe a political affiliation than the extremely limited "right" or "left". Political views are not either or, they are myriad and often can fit better into a 3D graph than one based on a line.

So what's different?

There have always been conservative democrats, liberal republicans, and a sharing of ldeological ideas throughout history.

What's different is libertarians claiming that sharing of ideas belongs to them, and doing a damn good job of annoying the fuck out of a lot of people by doing that. I listen to a lot of political perspectives and what I hear most about libertarians is that they're annoying as hell. I even hear that from some libertarians.

The reason MSM doesn't print negative articles about Ron Paul is because they don't want to be annoyed by his supporters. Before Ronbots come screaming about how mean MSM is to them, take the Ron Paul MSM is Mean Test. Google "ron paul" .. click on the news link which is where most MSM articles can be found .. count how many negative Ron Paul articles you come across.

They'd rather just ignore him unless they've got something positive tp say like ABC is reporting he had more COH than McCain. His supporters are partly responsible for him being ignored by the media.

I'm against the war and have been from its beginning, but that doesn't make me remotely libertarian and b eing against war does not belong tp libertarian ideology

There is no social responsibilty in libertarianism.

This isn't an expansion of ideas .. it's a search for relevance.

 

[Cancel7]

Rubbish. There are libertarians that lean left, those that lean right. It is simply an extension of the graph from a line to a superfacia...

Just as there are "moderate" Rs and Ds, that don't just fit on the line graph.

No, it's not rubbish. It's a label you people insist on putting onto others, but I reject this label, much as I reject most labels others try and force onto me.

I am a liberal. My social views are liberal in nature. My civil rights and civil liberty views, are liberal in nature. I have no need of additional labels others feel the need to give to me.

 

[Damocles]

Right on Darla. Libertarians are to a large extent just embaressed republicans.

And if you repeat it often enough you may believe it however ridiulous it is when compared to reality.

 

[Timshel]

BS. It's one more way to discredit the left. As if nothing that was leftist could be a good position.

Well guess what?

The left in this country saw bush coming from 10 miles out, and they saw the patriot act coming, and they saw the Iraqi debacle coming, and they have stood up loudly and defended civil rights from the bush adminstration's onslaught, and thanks for your magnanimity, but not all of us are jumping up and down squealing with delight over you showing your approval by labeling us libertarians of any kind.

Bullshit! Dems did not stand up on Iraq, and a large number supported the Patriot Act. Meanhwile, libertarians stood strongly against both from the beginning and have not changed with the winds.

This is really stupid to argue that we are labeling Feingold. Check the google link above you moronic conspiracy nuts.