IBDaMann
Well-known member
What changed about the climate?
Science from the other side of Climate Change
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T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Beyond it being changes in climate, I don't have to. The glacier changed dramatically and it wasn't due to space aliens or nuclear war. It was due to changes in climate. I don't have to specify those changes beyond that they occurred, whatever they may be.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Show it wasn't climate changes that caused the glacier to recede and or it is your king that gets tipped.
Daylight63
Verified User
So you don't think climate is part of the environment?
Hmmmmmmm, that would be pretty fuckin' stupid.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Don't know, and for this discussion, don't care. It was the cause, specifics to be determined. Like I said, it wasn't space aliens or a nuclear war.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Don't know. The climate changed. That's sufficient to say it was the cause of the glacier receding.
Think of it this way: You have a flat tire on your car. Clearly the air holding the tire up by pressure was let out. The exact cause is irrelevant to having a flat tire. You can determine the cause and maybe fix it. Or you may just need a new tire.
Changes in climate caused the glacier to recede. Why those changes happened is open to debate. You are trying to conflate the two into a single question, and that's not how you should be approaching this.
Daylight63
Verified User
Do you know how glaciers GROW? Let me tell you.
Glaciers grow because at the TOP of the glacier (waaaaay high in the mountain!) snow accumulates in what is called the ZONE OF ACCUMULATION. This causes the snow and ice to get real thick and push downhill and outward.
Further DOWN the glacier is the ZONE OF ABLATION where snow and ice melt leave the glacier! (Often it is warmer at lower altitudes!)
In order for a glacier to ADVANCE it has to have MORE ACCUMULATION than ABLATION. It has to have MORE snow and ice forming up at the top than is being lost due to melting at the bottom!
BUT IF IT GETS EVEN WARMER AT THE LOWER LEVELS MORE ABLATION WILL HAPPEN. It will melt FASTER than the accumulation can help it grow!
Why would a mountain glacier grow and flow down the valleys for MILLENNIA and then just suddenly one day STOP and retreat?
ANSWER: BECAUSE IT IS GETTING WARMER THERE.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Exactly. The cause of that warming is open to debate. The glacier receding is not.Do you know how glaciers GROW? Let me tell you.
Glaciers grow because at the TOP of the glacier (waaaaay high in the mountain!) snow accumulates in what is called the ZONE OF ACCUMULATION. This causes the snow and ice to get real thick and push downhill and outward.
Further DOWN the glacier is the ZONE OF ABLATION where snow and ice melt leave the glacier! (Often it is warmer at lower altitudes!)
In order for a glacier to ADVANCE it has to have MORE ACCUMULATION than ABLATION. It has to have MORE snow and ice forming up at the top than is being lost due to melting at the bottom!
BUT IF IT GETS EVEN WARMER AT THE LOWER LEVELS MORE ABLATION WILL HAPPEN. It will melt FASTER than the accumulation can help it grow!
Why would a mountain glacier grow and flow down the valleys for MILLENNIA and then just suddenly one day STOP and retreat?
ANSWER: BECAUSE IT IS GETTING WARMER THERE.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
It's not somehow a change in something that cannot change. If you are going to argue that something that cannot change has somehow changed, yes, you absolutely need to show the causation ... or else tip your king.
If you won't do either, then you are being irrational and dishonest. Enjoy.
Get back to the climate changing and showing the causality. I grant you that lots of things that aren't the climate changed. I'll stipulate that right up front. However, none of those things that are not the climate are the climate.
I notice that you haven't defined "climate" in any unambiguous way that doesn't violate physics, math or logic. Are you happy with my definition, that doesn't contain any value properties to change?
Hint: you can't show causality of something that is purely undefined.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
You have just engaged in the religious "unfalsifiability" argument which establishes that you know that we aren't discussing any science but rather are discussing your religious beliefs.
Just a quick overview:
1. You affirmatively claim something about your unfalsifiable religious faith. (climate)
2. I ask you to show/demonstrate/prove it to be true.
3. You demand that I show it to be false ... which you know cannot be done to anything unfalsifiable.
If you are going to acknowledge that Climate Change is just your WACKY religious faith then we can be done.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
That there is any warming needs to be shown ... and can't be.
I'll give you a heads-up: A glacier receding in a particular region while a new glacier forms and grows elsewhere in the same region merely shows that water/precipitation is shifting position. Your neglect of new/forming/growing glaciers doesn't make them disappear.
ADreamOfLiberty
Verified User
Reference. Cite your sources.Do you know how glaciers GROW? Let me tell you.
Glaciers grow because at the TOP of the glacier (waaaaay high in the mountain!) snow accumulates in what is called the ZONE OF ACCUMULATION. This causes the snow and ice to get real thick and push downhill and outward.
Further DOWN the glacier is the ZONE OF ABLATION where snow and ice melt leave the glacier! (Often it is warmer at lower altitudes!)
In order for a glacier to ADVANCE it has to have MORE ACCUMULATION than ABLATION. It has to have MORE snow and ice forming up at the top than is being lost due to melting at the bottom!
BUT IF IT GETS EVEN WARMER AT THE LOWER LEVELS MORE ABLATION WILL HAPPEN. It will melt FASTER than the accumulation can help it grow!
Why would a mountain glacier grow and flow down the valleys for MILLENNIA and then just suddenly one day STOP and retreat?
ANSWER: BECAUSE IT IS GETTING WARMER THERE.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
You haven't stated your definition of climate. Are you using mine or are you using your own?
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
What a load of bullshit that is.
The glacier receded over a century. That is a measurable, observable, fact.
The mechanism by which glaciers expand, or contract is known.
Therefore, something changed to cause the glacier to recede.
The obvious, and undeniable fact is that climate change had to do it.
Now, what is debatable is what changes happened in the climate to cause that to occur.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
You apparently you don't get this debate thing. You are the one who is affirmatively arguing that a climate with no changeable values can somehow change. You are the one who has to do the showing. Nobody else needs to show anything. However, I get to poke holes in your illogic, your faltering science understanding, and any poor math you display.
Start showing your causation or tip your king.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
See my post #696
IBDaMann
Well-known member
I'll consider your king tipped.
So you're back to arguing your "a glacier is a climate" lunacy. I get it. You're a nutcase.
The glacier is shifting position. It is dying where it currently is and is forming/growing elsewhere. I notice that you didn't want to talk about any new/forming/growing glacier because it would make it patently obvious right away that you are allowing someone else to do your thinking for you, and that the words you post are not your own.
You should start questioning things that you are ordered to believe. You know that I'm going to question you the moment you start regurgitating so you might as well ask for the clarification while your thought-masters have you bent over furniture.
The obvious fact is that you have no idea what you are talking about. You can't even define your terms.
Nope. You haven't shown that any climate can change. You can't seem to get over that nasty little hurdle.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
So, you don't even know what climate is. Don't you think that would have been a good thing for you to find out before you posted nonsense?
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Nope. You can copy-paste what you need me to know. It'll take you three seconds.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Oooops, king tipped again. Get back to me when you can specify what you are claiming is chaning about climate.