APP - Senator Kennedy became one of my heroes!

Damocles said:
Directly acting to keep something legal even though you believe it to be "murder" is the same thing as supporting it. Period. Donating time to support the activity is the same thing as donating money to the cause.

Literally spending hours supporting the activity then saying you don't support it... illogical in an extreme.
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I totally disagree with the first part. There are plenty of things I want to be legal that I would be against!

I agree that donating time to support an activity is the same thign as donating money to the cause.

I vote pro-choice, yet I donate time and money to orginizations that I belive, in the long run, will result in less abortions.
 
Jarod said:
I totally disagree with the first part. There are plenty of things I want to be legal that I would be against!

I agree that donating time to support an activity is the same thign as donating money to the cause.

I vote pro-choice, yet I donate time and money to orginizations that I belive, in the long run, will result in less abortions.
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I do not spend hours supporting a law directly unless I support it. Nor do you. You spend hours and hours defending the practice on this site alone, that is support, no equivocating. There is nothing wrong with supporting what you see as "rights", IMO there is something wrong with people who are incapable of understanding how the other side views it though.
 
Damocles said:
I do not spend hours supporting a law directly unless I support it. Nor do you. You spend hours and hours defending the practice on this site alone, that is support, no equivocating. There is nothing wrong with supporting what you see as "rights", IMO there is something wrong with people who are incapable of understanding how the other side views it though.
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I spend hours debating the issue on this cite, I do enjoy debate, I have no illusions that the time I sepnd debating any issues is helping the cause!

I have never defended the practice of ABORTION.

I know how the other side views it, I just disagree with there position and am willing to argue it. It is flawed logic to say that because you dont want the government to get involved means you support the issue.
 
Jarod said:
I spend hours debating the issue on this cite, I do enjoy debate, I have no illusions that the time I sepnd debating any issues is helping the cause!

I have never defended the practice of ABORTION.

I know how the other side views it, I just disagree with there position and am willing to argue it. It is flawed logic to say that because you dont want the government to get involved means you support the issue.
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I never said that not wanting the government involved supports it, I have said that spending hours defending the "right", as you have, is support. You can also note the language that supporters use as opposed to somebody who doesn't support the activity.

A pro-lifer calls themselves pro-life, a supporter of abortion "rights" calls them "anti-abortionists", like you do even in this thread. Why are you so ashamed to support something like this?

Somebody who supports abortion "rights" calls themselves "pro-choice" (as you call yourself on this thread) while somebody who is a pro-lifer calls it "pro-abortion"....

I just don't get why you are such an apologist for your own belief.
 
Damocles said:
I never said that not wanting the government involved supports it, I have said that spending hours defending the "right", as you have, is support. You can also note the language that supporters use. A pro-lifer calls themselves pro-life, a supporter of abortion "rights" calls them "anti-abortionists", like you do even in this thread. Why are you so ashamed to support something like this?
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No, Ive always called them "anti-choice", not "anti abortionists"! Thats because I belive that by spending time on making it illegal, they are wasting money and effort on a MUCH less efficent method of making it cease to exist.

I am debating theories of government and its place in our lives when I debate the issue. I spend hours discussing it on this cite all the time. I do not spend hours or money trying to encourage more abortions. In fact, I spend hours and money trying to ensure that there are less abortions. In the words of Bill Clinton, "I want abortion to be safe, legal and RARE!"

I would go one step further by saying, "I want abortion to be obsolite, and I belive that the way to get there is by it being, at this time, safe, legal and rare!"
 
Jarod said:
No, Ive always called them "anti-choice", not "anti abortionists"! Thats because I belive that by spending time on making it illegal, they are wasting money and effort on a MUCH less efficent method of making it cease to exist.

I am debating theories of government and its place in our lives when I debate the issue. I spend hours discussing it on this cite all the time. I do not spend hours or money trying to encourage more abortions. In fact, I spend hours and money trying to ensure that there are less abortions. In the words of Bill Clinton, "I want abortion to be safe, legal and RARE!"

I would go one step further by saying, "I want abortion to be obsolite, and I belive that the way to get there is by it being, at this time, safe, legal and rare!"
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Oh, sorry. "anti-choicers"... The point remains the same. Your language, the time you dedicate to support the "choice" here and elsewhere, and your terms define you. You are debating support for one specific activity, believe it is a "right", and care little for what others see it as. You are a supporter.
 
Damocles said:
Oh, sorry. "anti-choicers"... The point remains the same. Your language, the time you dedicate to support the "choice" here and elsewhere, and your terms define you. You are debating support for one specific activity, believe it is a "right", and care little for what others see it as. You are a supporter.
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I am a supporter of the right to privacy (freedom) and all that entales, I also want abortion to end, I belive that the most efficent/best way to end abortion is to spend that money and effort somewhere other than on trying to make it illegal.

Making it illegal is a step closer to putting it back in the closet, not ending it.
 
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Jarod said:
I am a supporter of the right to privacy (freedom) and all that entales, I also want abortion to end, I belive that the most efficent/best way to end abortion is to spend that money and effort somewhere other than on trying to make it illegal.

Making it illegal is a step closer to putting it back in the closet, not ending it.
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If such were the case, implying that people who wish the activity to end were "anti-choicers" would be insulting yourself. Your language, your insistence that it is a "privacy" right, and your dedication to the cause of keeping it accessible belie your intent. You support the action, defend it in every way, try to marginalize those who disagree by mocking them with negative names and stereotypes... You are a supporter, and are ashamed of it.
 
Damocles said:
If such were the case, implying that people who wish the activity to end were "anti-choicers" would be insulting yourself. Your language, your insistence that it is a "privacy" right, and your dedication to the cause of keeping it accessible belie your intent. You support the action, defend it in every way, try to marginalize those who disagree by mocking them with negative names and stereotypes... You are a supporter, and are ashamed of it.
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What negative name or stereotype have I mocked anyone with?

Say what you want, I am a supporter of it being legal, thats all.

You are trying to mock and marginalize those who would stand up for freedom, even when unpopluar, even when its not pretty by tying the right and principal to an unfortunate and unhappy evil that exists in our society. By doing so you are not reducing that evil but using it to chip away at the right to FREEDOM (privacy from government interference).
 
Jarod said:
What negative name or stereotype have I mocked anyone with?

Say what you want, I am a supporter of it being legal, thats all.

You are trying to mock and marginalize those who would stand up for freedom, even when unpopluar, even when its not pretty by tying the right and principal to an unfortunate and unhappy evil that exists in our society. By doing so you are not reducing that evil but using it to chip away at the right to FREEDOM (privacy from government interference).
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Again, you use the language of marginalizing of the supporter then ask me what language you use?

Anti-choicer, remove the mote from your eye....

Stop being ashamed of your support, stand up and be proud of what you believe in rather than try to be both at once while attempting to marginalize the side you least agree with. I've been embarrassed for you today. Your arguments have been the weakest I have seen in a long time.
 
Damocles said:
Again, you use the language of marginalizing of the supporter then ask me what language you use?

Anti-choicer, remove the mote from your eye....

Stop being ashamed of your support, stand up and be proud of what you believe in rather than try to be both at once while attempting to marginalize the side you least agree with. I've been embarrassed for you today. Your arguments have been the weakest I have seen in a long time.
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Ive been very embarrased for you lately, you enjoyed a lot of my respect for a long time, been going downhill for a while.

I hope I am still able to learn more from you, go back to being the statesman I saw you as!

I am what I am and I support what I support. I am not ashamed at all of my positions. I belive strongly in the right to freedom from excessive government infringement in my life! Sometimes that means I have to stand up for rights that allow people the choice to do things I personally find offensive. Its a difficult position but one I believe in strongly.
 
Jarod said:
SO being pro-choice is the same as being a mass muderer?
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Yep. Just like being a Nazi, and that is not my usual dramatics and hyperbole at play. Abortion is one of the few issues I don't joke around about.

Well, not entirely. I do make jokes about damnation, but that is more of a half joke than anything...
 
T&A said:
Yep. Just like being a Nazi, and that is not my usual dramatics and hyperbole at play. Abortion is one of the few issues I don't joke around about.

Well, not entirely. I do make jokes about damnation, but that is more of a half joke than anything...
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So if you are pro-death penalty are you a murderer?
 
Jarod said:
So if you are pro-death penalty are you a murderer?
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Perhaps. I am not pro-death penalty, so no gotcha for you... Now, the fact that liberals see a comparison between the two does suggest hopelessness on your part. We should just legalize drugs and let you all OD already.
 
Jarod said:
If you are pro-war does that make you a mass murderer?
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If you are merely pro-war for the sake of hawkishness, then yes. There is a definite need for war, or at least for having warmaking capacity, but simply supporting war makes you a murderer. I think most partisans don't count in this definition, because people will oppose wars (Balkans, Iraq) when they are out of power. Some people opposed either or both examples on principle, but they are not the majority, I think...

I initially supported Iraq (and continued to into 2006, if memory serves) because it was sold as a national security threat. I was also 16, and had not studied the realist strategy to containing the Middle East (ala Brent Scowcroft and Bush Sr. during the Gulf War).
 
T&A said:
If you are merely pro-war for the sake of hawkishness, then yes. There is a definite need for war, or at least for having warmaking capacity, but simply supporting war makes you a murderer. I think most partisans don't count in this definition, because people will oppose wars (Balkans, Iraq) when they are out of power. Some people opposed either or both examples on principle, but they are not the majority, I think...

I initially supported Iraq (and continued to into 2006, if memory serves) because it was sold as a national security threat. I was also 16, and had not studied the realist strategy to containing the Middle East (ala Brent Scowcroft and Bush Sr. during the Gulf War).
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So, if you are Pro-Choice across the board... you are a mass murderer, if you are Pro-Choice in some circumstances you are not?
 
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