Annie
Not So Junior Member
Seems at least one Muslim country is concerned about people actually finding out what the Koran says:
Shiites burn six Sunni worshippers alive
- Thread starter Damocles
- Start date
Yeah, but dudes like this who wrote this book thought there were WMD in Iraq, that Saddam was harboring and helping Al Qaeda, and evidently were unaware of the sunni shia divide in iraq and how Bush's war might impact that.
So, I'd say this dude and Gaffer's "knowledge" of the middle east, can pretty much be dismissed as either wrong, or irrelevant.
Annie
Not So Junior Member
Like this?
If you read his books or articles prior to 9/11, prior to 'Jihad Watch', you'd find they were not 'light weight' at all...
maineman
Banned
I have been studying Islam since 1980 and I'm not a lightweight either... I have actually lived in places where muslims made up the vast majority of the population...where I had to interact with them in every aspect of life, both business and social...and where I developed an in-depth personal opinion of muslims which is nowhere near what you or Virgil Goode, for example , might have us believe.
Robert Spencer is not a scholar. He doesn't even have a PhD., which is the generally accepted minimum requirement for serious scholarship and research. He works at a rightwing thinktank.
Second, Spencer's Master's degree from UNC was in "early christianity" studies.....aka, he is not an Islamic studies scholar.
Annie
Not So Junior Member
Here's the difference though, I do take what you say seriously. I do not just say, fax the credentials or shut up, which is what you and some are doing. Just curious, I have 2 MA now and am working towards a Phd., does that make my studies more credible than some guy that hated school, but reads constantly? I though conservatives were the elite snobs?
maineman
Banned
Look...I am neither elite nor a snob. I know a few topics really well and I am woefully inadaquate in a myriad of others. I served our country as a naval officer for a quarter of a century... I loved every minute of my career and miss the sea every day of my now landlubber life... I served our country as a UN Crisis mediator and military observer....it was the most exhilarating two years of my entire life.... I feel confident in speaking about my experiences and the opinions I have drawn based upon those experiences. I can speak with similar expertise about little else.... shiphandling, choral singing, the precision method of bidding in contract bridge, golf, the Boston Red Sox, the inner workings of the Maine legislature and the Maine democratic party.... that's about it... and cooking.... and my wife and kids... but on those subjects, I take a back seat to no one unless they lift me up and put me back there with the overwhelming strength of their knowledge and understanding. I do not know what your degrees are in, but if they are in anything other than the rather narrow and disjointed topics listed above, I would not THINK to argue with you about them. Again..I can say - confidently - from personal experience - that muslims in the middle east are NOT evil hateful barbaric people but warm and loving and giving and caring people not very much different from warm loving giving caring Americans of any other faith.
No offense. But you tried to pass of this Mr. Spencer dude as some kind of credible islamic scholar.
The first thing any reasonable person does when examining the credibility of an "expert", is to look at their qualifications. Its the same reason you glance at the law degree hanging on the wall and note which law school a lawyer went to, when you visit a lawyer. If he doesn't even have a law degree, but promises you that "he's done a lot of reading on the law", you might feel a little less comfortable with his qualifications to handle your case.
Does this spencer dude have a right to express his opinion? Yes. Does he write clearly and articulately? Perhaps.
But serious islamic scholarship, is not like learning about the latest fishing gear from REI. Its a subject matter that requires serious study, and the more formalized the study the better. At a minimum, a serious religious scholar - or any scholar for that matter - typically has a PhD in the field they're alleged to be an expert on.
This spendcer dude has no formal education is islamic studies, and merely has a masters degree in early christianity from a middling public state university.
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Annie
Not So Junior Member
Actually I had. He had written quite extensively on Islam prior to 9/11, which is why he is taken seriously. If one has a master's in religious studies, if you say Christian, ok-it still is the fundamental reasoning that is used to study other aspects of the discipline.
I assume, unless contrary evidence is provided, (such as BB seems to do), that what posters say is their 'experience', or 'studies'-formal or informal is more or less correct. Does that mean that I'll agree with their conclusions? Not necessarily, but I will take it into consideration. With MM I assume his Middle East experiences and familiarity with Islam. Of course, that still doesn't make him the 'be all and end all' any more or less than Spencer, who has studied Islam for over 20 years, speaks and reads Arabic, etc.
Personally, I woulnd't present a dude with a master's degree in islamic studies, from the University of Tehran, to this board as a scholarly expert on Christian Theology.
That's why I'm suprised you present a dude with a master's degree in early christian studies from Univ. of North Carolina, as a credible scholarly expert in Islamic theology.
I think there may be a bit of crossover considering the interaction between the two religions happens to be a large part of that study. Pretending that it is all in a vacuum and that this guy would have no expertise in that area is simply an attempt to discredit him.
Annie
Not So Junior Member
Right Damo, but then he'd have to confront what is said.
maineman
Banned
DO you think that the airlines routinely substitute auto mechanics for aircraft mechanics because, hell, both of them are mechanics, after all, and there must be crossover such that one should be considered a de facto quaisi-expert on the other simply by nature of the shared title?
Do you think this also makes this guy an expert on every other religion simply by virtue of his studies into christianity?
Do you think this also makes this guy an expert on every other religion simply by virtue of his studies into christianity?
maineman
Banned
so..the rabbi DOES agree to hear confession for his friend the priest who had an important engagement come up suddenly....
while in the confessional, a parishioner enters and confesses to performing oral sex on a woman not his wife....not knowing what sort of penance to award, the rabbi quickly slipped out and asked a passing altar boy what the priests routinely gave for oral sex, and the altar boy replied, "a can of coke and plate of cookies"
I'm simply pointing out his qualifications. Does he have a right to an opinion? Yes. Does he have some general knowledge of islam "from reading on his own"? Probably.
He's not a trained scholar in islam. He has no formal training in it. He writing is islamo-phobic - which should give pause to any libertarian. And, he doesn't do peer-reviewed work. He works at a think tank, where his work is not subject to the peer-review by other experts in the field that is a neccessary component of scholarly research and analysis.
If you really want to understand the confluence of Iraq, Islam, and the WOT, read Dr. Juan Cole. I've been reading him for the last three years.
Unlike Robert Spencer, Dr. Cole has been right about virtually everything pertaining to Iraq and the broader Jihaddist movement. He predicted the Iraq Civil war, when NeoCons were still high-fiving over the capture of Saddam; he articulately and correctly analyzed the roots and causes of the shia/sunni split (While NeoCons were assuring us we were "close" to Victory); and he correctly analyzes the Al Qaeda movement, in the broader context of the sunni-shia division (While NeoCons were erroneously asserting that the Al Qaeda movement is inspired by Iran and that one jihaddist warrior "is just like the next").
Dr. Juan Cole
Professional History
-1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
-1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
-1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles
-1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan
-1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan
-1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan
-1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan
http://www.juancole.com/
Unlike Robert Spencer, Dr. Cole has been right about virtually everything pertaining to Iraq and the broader Jihaddist movement. He predicted the Iraq Civil war, when NeoCons were still high-fiving over the capture of Saddam; he articulately and correctly analyzed the roots and causes of the shia/sunni split (While NeoCons were assuring us we were "close" to Victory); and he correctly analyzes the Al Qaeda movement, in the broader context of the sunni-shia division (While NeoCons were erroneously asserting that the Al Qaeda movement is inspired by Iran and that one jihaddist warrior "is just like the next").
Dr. Juan Cole
Professional History
-1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
-1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
-1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles
-1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan
-1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan
-1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan
-1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan
http://www.juancole.com/
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