Shiites burn six Sunni worshippers alive

Gaffer said:
I don't care what my job is I would not have lunch with terrorists. But then unifil was just there to keep the Israelis bottled up while the islamist built up their forces and syria took control of lebanon.
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your knowledge of my job and of UNIFIL could fit in a coffee cup and there would still be room for a cup of coffee. I didn't even work for UNIFIL, you idiot.... and if you didn't care what your job was and wouldn't do your job, then you would not have been a very professional military officer. Why am I not surprised?

The gentlemen I mentioned were hardly "terrorists"... they were politicians and maintaining communications with them was part of my job. I did it and I did it well and, in the process, had some delightfully informative and educational experiences. It is clear that you could use some of those sorts of educational moments yourself.
 
Indeed...

Gaffer said:
We need to level sadr city once and for all, then maybe the iraqi's can take full control. we also need to beef up along the borders with iran and syria and stop the flow of supplies. Without those supplies the fighting will come to an end because they don't have anything to fight with.

I don't care what my job is I would not have lunch with terrorists. But then unifil was just there to keep the Israelis bottled up while the islamist built up their forces and syria took control of lebanon.

unifil is back, and they will sit and observe as the islamists build up again and launch their next attack.
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I gave up on vainman...so I will address your comments...Maineman was wrong about Hamas not being a entity when he was in the ME as well as Hezbollah...both groups can be traced back to the 1970's..

see: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

www.iranexpert.com/2004/hamas22aapril.htm this one shows the Iraq/Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran Shiite connection

addendum: www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hezbollah-History.htm
 
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Battleborne said:
I gave up on vainman...so I will address your comments...Maineman was wrong about Hamas not being a entity when he was in the ME as well as Hezbollah...both groups can be traced back to the 1970's..

see: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

www.iranexpert.com/2004/hamas22aapril.htm this one shows the Iraq/Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran Shiite connection

addendum: www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hezbollah-History.htm
Click to expand...

very briefly....I said from above: "I have never said Hamas was in Lebanon....because they are not... they are pretty much contained in the West Bank and moreso Gaza.... Hezbollah was not in Lebanon when I was there and you said they were.... another lie..."

I said that Hamas was not an entity in LEBANON....and it still is NOT in Lebanon... Hamas has nothing to do with Lebanon now nor ever. They are a sunni palestinian organization..... Hezbollah is a shiite lebanese organization that is modeled directly on the Iranian revolutionary experience.


You state "....as well as Hezbollah...both groups can be traced back to the 1970's..

yet the third link that you reference begins with the sentence:

"The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel"
(which happened just as I was LEAVING the region, by the way.)
one would think that you would post links to articles that SUPPORT your position, not IMPEACH it....but hey, maybe you're just battleweary....or maybe, as I suggested earlier.... you're just a moron.

AND...The fact that Iran is flexing its muscles throughout the region in the aftermath of our invasion/conquest/occupation of Iraq, the subsequent downfall of Saddam and the unsuing chaos that our presence there caused and continues to cause is INDEED frightening.... and the fact that Sadr is reaching out to sunnis in Palestine even as he kills them in Iraq is quite crafty... but these are all dynamics that are counterproductive to American informed self interest and all self inflicted wounds brought on directly by our debacle in Iraq.

Good job. With Bush and his gang, we have morons at the helm...... lunatics in charge of the insane asylum.

2008 cannot come quickly enough.
 
but regardless of our discussions to date, battleweary.... I would love your thoughts on the following which you seemed to pass by:

maineman said:
and I certainly want to talk substance here.... at issue is the fact that Iraq is rapidly dissolving into an incredibly bloody civil war. The violence is escalating despite all our efforts to quell it. What should we do? What is our mission and what strategic, informed best interest of the United States does that mission further? Can our original mission perhaps been overtaken by events to the point where it is no longer valid or no longer continues to serve our informed best interests? These are legitimate questions that we ought to be debating here.... instead, we have folks who don't know very much about the subject acting as if they do and continuing to press the "stay the course" mantra and its corollaries that would have all those who disagree be castigated as cowards and traitors. That is not debating the issue... that is throwing up false bravado and attempting to smear your opponents as a ruse to avoid discussing the difficult issues that you either do not understand enough to discuss intelligently or are afraid to face for fear of losing face...or both.
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You have just....

maineman said:
very briefly....I said from above: "I have never said Hamas was in Lebanon....because they are not... they are pretty much contained in the West Bank and moreso Gaza.... Hezbollah was not in Lebanon when I was there and you said they were.... another lie..."

I said that Hamas was not an entity in LEBANON....and it still is NOT in Lebanon... Hamas has nothing to do with Lebanon now nor ever. They are a sunni palestinian organization..... Hezbollah is a shiite lebanese organization that is modeled directly on the Iranian revolutionary experience.


You state "....as well as Hezbollah...both groups can be traced back to the 1970's..

yet the third link that you reference begins with the sentence:

"The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel"
(which happened just as I was LEAVING the region, by the way.)
one would think that you would post links to articles that SUPPORT your position, not IMPEACH it....but hey, maybe you're just battleweary....or maybe, as I suggested earlier.... you're just a moron.

AND...The fact that Iran is flexing its muscles throughout the region in the aftermath of our invasion/conquest/occupation of Iraq, the subsequent downfall of Saddam and the unsuing chaos that our presence there caused and continues to cause is INDEED frightening.... and the fact that Sadr is reaching out to sunnis in Palestine even as he kills them in Iraq is quite crafty... but these are all dynamics that are counterproductive to American informed self interest and all self inflicted wounds brought on directly by our debacle in Iraq.

Good job. With Bush and his gang, we have morons at the helm...... lunatics in charge of the insane asylum.

2008 cannot come quickly enough.
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Been demoted to Ensign...I shall now address you as Ensign Pulver!


First read all of the article in Military.com...please don't take shortcuts and only state the opening comment...second read all of the posted links...start with the first link ICH...if you read the entire article you wil find the following: Beggining in the late 1970's,TelAvivi gave direct and indirect financial aid to "HAMAS' over a period of years...Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin...it goes on and says: With the triumph of the Khomeni revolution in Iran,"with the Birth of Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon"....Now please tell us Ensign Pulver...What year did the Iranian revolution take place???? You were in Lebanon in 1981-1982 or so you state...and Hezbollah was there also!
 
Your own link states that the history of Hezbollah began in 82. That is your link...not mine. I can telly ou that in January of 1982, We had carefully documented the presence of ONE militia organization operating in East Beirut - the Phalange...and over 40 operating in West Beirut, including groups associated with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the PLO, the Mourabitoon, several Iraqi ba'athist organizations, several Syrian backed sunni militias and THE big player on the shiite side: Amal. Nabih Berri was the top dog and Daoud Daoud was #2. Hezbollah was NOWHERE on that list of over 40 muslim militia organizations. They rose up in response to the invasion of Israel in June of that year. Hezbollah did not come into being until after I left.

And beyond that.... Hamas is a sunni palestinian organization with NO presence in Lebanon. Never has had any... It was YOU who claimed that Hamas was present in Lebanon, not me...and then you shamelessly tried to cover up your egregious error by saying you were "just testing" me.

And do yourself a big favor...don't bring op-ed pieces to a debate and present them as fact.


and do you really want to talk about American policy in Iraq? Do you really want to defend our invasion/conquest/occupation of that country given all that has come unglued as a result?

Or do you want to play stupid "gotcha" games with a guy who has forgotten more about the middle east than you'll ever know and who had experienced more of the middle east before he turned 35 than you will have when then roll you into your coffin?

and when will you admit that your reason for playing those games is that you KNOW that your party's position vis a vis Iraq is indefensible.... and when will you accept the fact that the american voter told you so earlier this month?
 
Battleborne said:
Ensign Pulver...

www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=772

www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC07.php?CID=234

All you ever wanted to know about the Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas connection

and Hamas has front organizations in Lebanon...enjoy the crow Ensign!
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first article an op-ed piece ::yawn::

second article NEVER indicates any connection between Hamas and Hezbollah... it talks about similar law enforcement problems in dealing with the presence of operatives from both organizations in Europe, but never indicates any operational connection between them.

Are Hamas and Hezbollah both bad organizations? Of course. Hamas is a sunni organization whose focus is Palestine. Hezbollah is a shiite organization whose focus is Lebanon and who prides itself in patterning itself after the Iranian revolutionary guard. They are both nasty organizations...they both take money from a variety of sources, nefarious and otherwise, and they both have their own specific focus which do not coincide and which do not include Iraq..... so what the fuck IS your point in talking about Lebanon as if it had any bearing on the mess in Iraq today or in talking about it as if you have any understanding of its complex political dynamic?

I brought Lebanon into the discussion to say that it was there that I learned about the various factions involved in the generic Islamic struggle, and you seem intent on "proving" that I did not understand what I clearly DO understand. Try a new approach there, battleweary..... you are getting tedious and boring.
 
again...from your very own link:

The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel. Israel had re-invaded the country in an effort to control members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) who had settled there and were carrying out attacks on Israel. In response Shi'ite Muslims with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah to combat the Israeli presence, and ultimately to assist the Palestinians in their fight for statehood.

How much clearer can it be? In response to Israel invading Lebanon in the summer of 1982, shiites in Lebanon formed Hezbollah. In 1982. Not the 70's. Do you really want to continue this silliness or do you want to talk politics and foreign policy instead?
 
Gaffer said:
Those are long reads, none of the libs here are going to read through those. They would then be informed and educated. They prefer talking points.
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I actually read them both and found them to be less than accurate and less than informative but more opinionated than scholarly.
 
Gaffer said:
Those are long reads, none of the libs here are going to read through those. They would then be informed and educated. They prefer talking points.
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You never did explain and elaborate on your assertion that the shia muslims were going to take over the muslim world, create a caliphate, and subjugate the sunnis....given the fact that the shia are a tiny minority in islam (primarily focused in iran), and that goblal jihhaddists like al qaeda are mainly from the militant sunni sects.
 
"informed", "educated", and "Gaffer" cannot all legitimately go into the same sentence without the inclusion of the word "not".
 
Lol...

maineman said:
I actually read them both and found them to be less than accurate and less than informative but more opinionated than scholarly.
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More op-ed from Ensign Pulver soon to be Private Gomer Pyle...did you also fail reading comp 101 at the Naval Academy?
 
your own link clearly lays out the birth of Hezbollah as a result of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 - not in the 70's. Who is it that has a problem with comprehension?
 
I understood what the article said...it said, quite clearly and unambiguously:

"The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel. Israel had re-invaded the country in an effort to control members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) who had settled there and were carrying out attacks on Israel. In response Shi'ite Muslims with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah to combat the Israeli presence, and ultimately to assist the Palestinians in their fight for statehood"

You are the one who claims that Hezbollah was founded in the 70's. The reading comprehension problem is all yours
 
Sorry Pvt Gomer...

maineman said:
I understood what the article said...it said, quite clearly and unambiguously:

"The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel. Israel had re-invaded the country in an effort to control members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) who had settled there and were carrying out attacks on Israel. In response Shi'ite Muslims with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah to combat the Israeli presence, and ultimately to assist the Palestinians in their fight for statehood"

You are the one who claims that Hezbollah was founded in the 70's. The reading comprehension problem is all yours
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Hanging on to the opening comment on one article does not delete the comments and analysis of the others re-read...or go cry to your wife as she is probably the only one who who pats you on the head and says I believe ya dear...then again she is probably only looking out for the security of the retirement check...
:cof1:
 
I am hanging on to the facts. Hezbollah was a Lebanese movement that sprung up in the wake of the Israeli invasion in 1982. It took as its inspiration, the revolutionary guard of Iran that successfully deposed the Shah in 1979. It did not, however, become a movement on its own until 1982. Nothing in any of your links disputes my position on that..... you just fail to comprehend what you post links to. Deal with it.
 
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