Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy

Superfreak said:
THIS is where you and I differ in opinions. It absolutely matters what the prison gets. Would it make a difference if the company handed the check to the prisoners and THEN the prison took the money from the prisoners to pay for their incarceration?

To equate that to slaves is ridiculous. Especially your example of the slaves on a plantation above. There is one major difference that you are ignoring. The slaves were innocent. The prisoners are not. The slaves have no choice but to work. The prisoners have a choice in most cases. The slaves could be beaten, raped and killed by their owners with no recourse. The prisoners, despite your "they would be too afraid" comments, have recourse and there are checks in place to try to prevent abuse from employees of the prison.
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Completely ineffective checks are meaningless. But let's not quibble.

You're objecting to a relatively minor point, I submit. That's easy for me to say, since I agree more with BAC's opinion, it's true. But step back from this issue one level of abstraction, please.

Doesn't the incarceration rate itself say something about our society? We put more people in prison than does China, for crying out loud, despite the fact they've literally four times our population AND have a repressive, authoritarian government. How do we know they have a repressive, authoritarian government? Well, for one thing, it's that government's eagerness to throw people in prison.

There's a bit of a disconnect here, don't you think?

Overzealous enforcement is itself oppressive, especially when enforcement is applied disproportionately across the population.
 
Superfreak said:
THIS is where you and I differ in opinions. It absolutely matters what the prison gets. Would it make a difference if the company handed the check to the prisoners and THEN the prison took the money from the prisoners to pay for their incarceration?

To equate that to slaves is ridiculous. Especially your example of the slaves on a plantation above. There is one major difference that you are ignoring. The slaves were innocent. The prisoners are not. The slaves have no choice but to work. The prisoners have a choice in most cases. The slaves could be beaten, raped and killed by their owners with no recourse. The prisoners, despite your "they would be too afraid" comments, have recourse and there are checks in place to try to prevent abuse from employees of the prison.
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SF. you're hung up on words man. Maybe a better term is prison labor. Get the f over it. It's wrong man. THat you can't see that saddens me.
 
In today’s America, drug laws have become the new Jim Crow laws, the prison/industrial complex has become the new plantation, and the warden has become the new overseer. America’s newest slaves aren’t picking cotton. They’re assembling computers, making women’s lingerie, booking airline flights over the phone, telemarketing for major corporations, and doing all kinds of tasks that free Americans used to be employed at doing. What appeared to be a normal plant closing by U.S. Technologies when it sold its electronics plant in Austin, was actually the company relocating its operations to a nearby Austin prison. One hundred and fifty “free” employees lost their jobs to the new slaves.

I had no idea this was going on. I know they performed labor in prison, but I mostly thought it was to maintain the prison and their upkeeping. They usually only show the laundry room in prison movies ;o)
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Completely ineffective checks are meaningless. But let's not quibble.

You're objecting to a relatively minor point, I submit. That's easy for me to say, since I agree more with BAC's opinion, it's true. But step back from this issue one level of abstraction, please.

Doesn't the incarceration rate itself say something about our society? We put more people in prison than does China, for crying out loud, despite the fact they've literally four times our population AND have a repressive, authoritarian government. How do we know they have a repressive, authoritarian government? Well, for one thing, it's that government's eagerness to throw people in prison.

There's a bit of a disconnect here, don't you think?

Overzealous enforcement is itself oppressive, especially when enforcement is applied disproportionately across the population.
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One in every 32 Americans are either in prison or on probabtion.

We have 5% of the world's population and 25% of all its prisoners.

Statistics like these are appalling and should make every American question who we are.
 
froggie said:
In today’s America, drug laws have become the new Jim Crow laws, the prison/industrial complex has become the new plantation, and the warden has become the new overseer. America’s newest slaves aren’t picking cotton. They’re assembling computers, making women’s lingerie, booking airline flights over the phone, telemarketing for major corporations, and doing all kinds of tasks that free Americans used to be employed at doing. What appeared to be a normal plant closing by U.S. Technologies when it sold its electronics plant in Austin, was actually the company relocating its operations to a nearby Austin prison. One hundred and fifty “free” employees lost their jobs to the new slaves.

I had no idea this was going on. I know they performed labor in prison, but I mostly thought it was to maintain the prison and their upkeeping. They usually only show the laundry room in prison movies ;o)
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"Made in America" is coming to mean "Made by a prison slave in America"
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Doesn't the incarceration rate itself say something about our society? We put more people in prison than does China, for crying out loud, despite the fact they've literally four times our population AND have a repressive, authoritarian government. How do we know they have a repressive, authoritarian government? Well, for one thing, it's that government's eagerness to throw people in prison.

There's a bit of a disconnect here, don't you think?

Overzealous enforcement is itself oppressive, especially when enforcement is applied disproportionately across the population.
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I have said in this thread already that the incarceration rate is due in large part to the idiotic drug laws and three strikes laws. These, IMO, need to be changed.

I have also stated that I think the lower your income, the greater the chances of your doing time for breaking the law. That celebrities/wealthy tend to walk every damn time. Even those in the middle income class can afford good enough attorneys to get them out of jail time.

But none of this changes the fact that I cannot even fathom how you call them slaves for having them work. Most states give them the choice of working for extra incentives (like escalated "good behavior credits"), they have legal recourse and most importantly THEY BROKE THE LAW. (our not liking the laws does not change that they are currently laws)
 
AssHatZombie said:
SF. you're hung up on words man. Maybe a better term is prison labor. Get the f over it. It's wrong man. THat you can't see that saddens me.
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Do try to read ass.

Of course it is called prison labor. It is not wrong, it is a part of our constitution. Giving them the choice to work is not wrong, it is giving them a CHOICE. Even in the cases where they are made to work, it is not wrong. They are paying for their incarceration.

What is wrong is the laws themselves. THAT is the problem. Individuals on this board are so hung up on calling them slaves, because it elicits all those nice little racist feelings. Try focusing your efforts on the laws themselves. That is where the problems lie.
 
Superfreak said:
Do try to read ass.

Of course it is called prison labor. It is not wrong, it is a part of our constitution. Giving them the choice to work is not wrong, it is giving them a CHOICE. Even in the cases where they are made to work, it is not wrong. They are paying for their incarceration.

What is wrong is the laws themselves. THAT is the problem. Individuals on this board are so hung up on calling them slaves, because it elicits all those nice little racist feelings. Try focusing your efforts on the laws themselves. That is where the problems lie.
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Paying for their incarceration against their will? Prison labor is constitutionally protected? Im sorry superfreak, it incentivizes increased arrests (and the creation of laws to justify them). You're wrong and immoral on this one.
 
The problem lies in the disparity in sentencing. If young white men were sent to prison and given long terms for first time drug offenses, drug laws would change overnight.

There are more definitions of a slave/slavery than the classical American south version of brutality and ungodly imhumanity. They are slaves because they are rounded up/taken and forced to work without anything remotely close to pay to benefit large multi-national corporations.

Slavery is legal in the US and slaves they are.
 
AssHatZombie said:
Paying for their incarceration against their will? Prison labor is constitutionally protected? Im sorry superfreak, it incentivizes increased arrests (and the creation of laws to justify them). You're wrong and immoral on this one.
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1) Do try to READ this.... in many states it is VOLUNTARY, it is just incentivized to the point that most work.

2) Yes, the 13th amendment allows from prison labor

3) Even in states where prisoners are forced to work, it is ok. You all seem to be hung up on the fact that they are not paid directly.

4) Why should taxpayers have to pay for the incarceration if the prisoners are capable of doing so? Should we force everyone else to work to pay for the prisoners?

5) If laws are being created for the sole purpose of increasing the prison population then it is OUR responsibility to put and end to it. Like the idiotic drug laws and especially the friggin three strikes laws.
 
It is very wrong to allow the government to incentivize incarceration for many reasons, but especially when it is incentivized because private industries, who lobby the government effectively and often get laws passed that otherwise would not be, can make a profit on it.

It is particularly worrisome in a coin-operated government like ours to allow people to make money based on the amount of people who are incarcerated. If we cannot see the threat to freedom when others can make a profit on our incarceration, then we are simply covering our eyes.

I do not think having prisoners work is a form of "slavery" when they do it to replace a portion of the cost of their expensive incarceration. I do think it is wrong to allow private industry to profit from it as it incentivizes increasing incarceration numbers in order to increase the work force.

Prisons should not ever be a for-profit industry. It becomes a clear threat to freedom.
 
blackascoal said:
The problem lies in the disparity in sentencing. If young white men were sent to prison and given long terms for first time drug offenses, drug laws would change overnight.

There are more definitions of a slave/slavery than the classical American south version of brutality and ungodly imhumanity. They are slaves because they are rounded up/taken and forced to work without anything remotely close to pay to benefit large multi-national corporations.

Slavery is legal in the US and slaves they are.
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AGAIN, as we already discussed... compare the sentences of poor white men with poor black men. I bet they are similar.

And AGAIN, you use your "they aren't paid much" mantra. AGAIN, and please answer it this time... if the corps paid the prisoners and THEN the prisoners paid the prison would that make it more acceptable to you? Or do you think the taxpayers should be slaves to the prisoners... forced to pay for those who break the law.
 
Superfreak said:
1) Do try to READ this.... in many states it is VOLUNTARY, it is just incentivized to the point that most work.

2) Yes, the 13th amendment allows from prison labor

3) Even in states where prisoners are forced to work, it is ok. You all seem to be hung up on the fact that they are not paid directly.

4) Why should taxpayers have to pay for the incarceration if the prisoners are capable of doing so? Should we force everyone else to work to pay for the prisoners?

5) If laws are being created for the sole purpose of increasing the prison population then it is OUR responsibility to put and end to it. Like the idiotic drug laws and especially the friggin three strikes laws.
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I don't care if they work to keep busy, or for their own care, I do have a problem with them being converted to a submarket labor force for outside business in any capacity.

I think 5) is where we're at.
 
So essentially, we should all just go back to the first five pages of this thread? Because we are all going over the same arguments we have already made. :)
 
AssHatZombie said:
I don't care if they work to keep busy, or for their own care, I do have a problem with them being converted to a submarket labor force for outside business in any capacity.

I think 5) is where we're at.
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Then we fight to change those laws. We lobby our reps to do so. That is a part of our responsibility.

That said, your main problem is that they work for corps? If they were to work for non-profits or the government only, would that be acceptable?
 
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