Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy

blackascoal said:
You're white???

Your being white had absolutely nothing to do with it and everything to do with your post I responded to .. go back and read where you tell me to "quit bitching".

This is a crucial and critical issue that is destroying African-American communities .. and you call it "bitching".

You don't understand for the very reasons you stated. You are disconnected from the tragedy .. but you've formed an opinion based on what? Shouldn't you first listen to people who are connected and knowledgeable about the issue before you take such a firm stand against it?

I'm black, do you think you're more sensitive to the issue and designation of "slaves" than I am? This is not to suggest that being black makes me any more intelligent then you are, but am I more sensitive to the holacaust than a jewish person would be? Am I more sensitive to birth than a woman would be?

I've read many of your posts and often I've agreed with you and have stated that I have. I have no problem with you taking a different position than I have and I have no problem defending or supporting anything I post. I do have a problem with unwarranted attacks.

Given that we often appear to be on the same side of the fence on other issues, I'm willing to apologize for anything I've said to you that offends you and explain to you why I believe these prisoners are slaves and why every American should be absolutely apalled and ashamed of what we've become.
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Fair enough... Likewise I will apologize for the childish name calling. It was unwaranted.

I would love to hear why you feel they are "slaves". Because I am WAY WAY over on the other side of the fence on this particular issue and I would like to understand your point of view. Because while I certainly think sentencing is too arbitrary and has led to bias, I do not think it is wrong to make prisoners work to essentially "earn" the money that is spent on them in prison.
 
Darla said:
SF is extremely excitable but he's not a bad guy. If you all dropped the name calling, the discussion would benefit.
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ACTUALLY, I am indeed rather evil. I took the whole black heart comment as a compliment. Although, now that I think about it.... is it racist to associate a "black" heart with "evil"?

hmmmm....

:D
 
Damocles said:
Didn't whatserface who drowned her kids blame it on a black man?
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Susan Smith, yeah. I don't think the cops arrested anyone in that case though, I could be wrong about this, but I think they smelled that one from moment one.

The Boston case bac posted where they arrested and "identified" a black man, I had not heard of.
 
Darla said:
Susan Smith, yeah. I don't think the cops arrested anyone in that case though, I could be wrong about this, but I think they smelled that one from moment one.

The Boston case bac posted where they arrested and "identified" a black man, I had not heard of.
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It shows, at least, that it is getting better. In the 30s they likely would have found some poor kid and hung him for it.
 
Superfreak said:
Fair enough... Likewise I will apologize for the childish name calling. It was unwaranted.

I would love to hear why you feel they are "slaves". Because I am WAY WAY over on the other side of the fence on this particular issue and I would like to understand your point of view. Because while I certainly think sentencing is too arbitrary and has led to bias, I do not think it is wrong to make prisoners work to essentially "earn" the money that is spent on them in prison.
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Most excellent my brother.

First, what we see before us is neither "arbitrary" or "biased." It is contrived and racist, Not biased, racist.

Stay with me a second and I'll explain.

Wihout getting too dramatic .. most Americans refuse to see what this nation has become. We refuse to look in the mirror, we'd rather look out the window and point fingers at everybody else. We refuse to recognize that America is now a full-blown plutocracy, no longer a democracy. We exist by corporate will. Take down the red-white-and blue. Raise the Chevron flag.

Your rejection of that you feel rising in your stomach right now .. you need to get over that my brother. Take a look in our mirror. We just mass-murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people .. for the corporate will. We didn't just invade one country, we invaded two .. for the corporate will. That bullshit they gave us about "terrorism" was meant for stupid people and Americans afraid to look in the mirror. The rest of the world doesn't believe that bullshit. Hijackers were from Saudia Arabia, why didn't we invade that country? .. Because the pipeline corporations wanted was in Afghanistan. They already own Saudia Arabia.

Who does all this incarceration and turning America into the prison nation benefit? The American people? .. Not by a long shot. We just get to pay for it. Even when crime goes down incarceration in America still rises. What does that say to you? But those benefiting from the Prison Industrial Complex are not limited to corporations using prison labor, or those constructing and operating prisons. Many politicians, judges, lawyers, insurance companies, crime fighting and prisoner controlling equipment corporations, security agencies, and gun manufacturer have done very well financially and advanced their career interests from the expansion of this industry. An industry you can only expand if you keep getting more prisoners.

AND .. the companies that use prison/slave labor get to stamp "MADE IN AMERICA", without telling you it was made by a slave.

Why do I call them slaves?

I do not think it is wrong to make prisoners work to essentially "earn" the money that is spent on them in prison
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How much of that do you think they can earn on 7 cents an hour or 25 cents an hour. $1.50 a day pays for nothing. They aren't "earning" anything. A person who is forced to work for nothing is a slave.

If they were paid at least minumum wage, they could also help their families left at home. Does that not benefit society? These are large multi-national corporations who, as corporations do, disregard the lives and being of America and Americans and increase their bottoms line with slaves. Did you know that some corporations even help fund new prisons? Why would they do that? We may soon have the Microsoft Federal Institition of Correction.

Americans have been mentally preconditioned to allow this to happen. Do you know why blacks are locked up in astronomical numbers .. even though whites comprise 72% of all illegal drug users? .. Because America doesn't care about black people. No different than what police agencies and prosecutors already know. If they were locking away young white men as they lock away young black men for minor drug offenses, drug laws would change tomorrow.

I talk to young brothers all the time. What do I tell them when they know the system is racist and looking to enslave or kill them, no matter how correct they live their lives.

Go here .. read the story of this man. An engineer, strong family man, loving wife and beautiful 3 year old daughter. SHOT in the back of his head as he did exactlay what the police officer told him. No criminal record whatsoever. NO drugs found. Out enjoying dinner with friends. SHOT in the back of the head .. and the police officer walks free.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/328/fallout.shtml

This is not anomaly. It happens all the time ... to us.

America doesn't care about black people but people of conscience do. People of conscience care about fairness, justice, and the image of America. People of conscience can end this evil.

Who benefits and how long will it take Americans to see what the rest of planet earth sees. We have become a dangerous nation that locks up more people than China which is 5 times our size. We use these prisoners as slaves.

We are fully owned and operated by large multi-national corporations. Americans haven't chosen a president since 2000.
 
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Yes, a law can be unjust.

The purpose of a law within a democracy is to establish order, typically moral guidelines that we follow. Don't kill, don't steal etc...
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When did you become an authoritarian? The only proper purpose of government and therefore the basis for a just law is the protection of individual rights from force and fraud.
 
BAC... I'll try to address my thoughts on each of yours in order here, rather than pasting your entire post into this one....

1) Yes, we have allowed corporations and special interest groups to derail our government. That will not change as long as we continue to equate money to free speech.

2) Corporations within the energy and defense sectors most definitely benefit at a time of war. Afghanistan was not about energy or oil, it was about going after those that harbored the terrorists that planned 9/11. While most of the hijackers were BORN/FROM Saudia Arabia, most had also been banished from the Kingdom... right along with their leader OBL. That is why we went to Afghanistan rather than Saudi. As for Iraq... we disagree here to an extent, but not nearly as much as with Afghanistan. If you wish, I can expand upon my reasons of disagreement, but I fear it will skew this thread off topic.

3) We are in agreement with regards to the level of incarceration increasing dramatically since the time of the crack down on drug users and the advent of the three strikes laws. Without question we should abolish both and release those that are in prison on non-violent drug charges.

4) Here is my problem with calling them slaves based simply on the wages they get directly (admittedly insignificant amounts). To my knowledge, the corporations also pay the prisons directly for the right to use the workforce. The money they pay the prisons is what goes towards covering some of the costs of incarceration. If it is more palatable, I don't see why they couldn't pay the prisoners directly and then tax them on the wages to cover the expenses of incarceration.

In addition to the above, a slave has no rights, no legal recourse, no ability to stand up for themselves. While these prisoners are obviously not "free", they still possess the right to an attorney, the file suit against the prisons if they feel they are being treated unfairly etc... In many cases (I will not say all, because I do not know) the prisoners get accelerated "time for good behavior" and can reduce sentence times by participating in the work programs and to my knowledge in most cases they can choose NOT to work as well. They just give up the incentives when making that decision.

They do not have the choices you and I do, no question, but I simply cannot get my mind around calling them slaves when there seems to be such a disparity between what prisoners go through vs. what I have read about slavery (such as in the US prior to the Cival War especially)

5) As for the percentage numbers of blacks in prison vs. white. I would like to see as Darla suggested a study done on the percentages of blacks vs. whites incarcerated that live below the poverty line, in the middle class and the wealthy.

My belief is, that while racism is certainly a factor, that it is more about the wealth of an individual. I think the reason you see the majority of those white drug users not being sent to jail is because they can afford the quality of legal representation that can get them out of it.

I believe that the reason there is a higher percentage of blacks in prison is due largely to the fact that a larger proportion of blacks are below the poverty line. Which is another disparity that we need to work to correct.

6) As for the state of our economy. If you want to eliminate the corporate control (and I beleive the control of special interest groups) then we must eliminate the theory that money equals free speech. Because as long as those groups are able to funnel large dollars into PACs or directly to the politicians.... we all lose.... because those with the large pocket books will continue to hose the rest of us... and the politicians of both parties will continue lining their pockets.
 
Superfreak,

In addressing your last post, think about this .. there aren't that many wealthy people in this country. Even wealthy white people. The vast majority of those who go through criminal courts are not wealthy by anyone's standards. Examine case studies, as have those organizations that report on this. This has little to nothing to do with class or poverty.

You mentioned Whitney Houston earlier, but she is not the norm. You cannot use individual celebrity cases to arrive at the norm. If we could I would be asking you why Jenna Bush is not in jail for life. You spoke of do the crime do the time . she's been convicted of drug possesion 3 times .. why isn't she out?

We can discuss Afghanistan another time .. but you're wrong if you think we invaded because of "terrorism". The neocons are even bold eough to tell you that themselves .. PNAC: Rebuilding America's Defenses.

On what you percieve as prisoner "rights", you need more research. You need to read the testimonials of those released from prison. Imagine that you are going to protest abusive treatment in prison .. are you sure you want to do that? You are at the mercy of the prison and if you step out and challenge what they're doing, you may end up dead. Who is going to care that you're dead? Especially when the prison gets to make up how you came to be dead.

Prisoners have virtually no rights.

It does a great disservice to the cause of bringing sanity to this issue and our nation if we don't call it what it is.

Slaves of the State
http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/ZMag/articles/july94wright.htm

Some of the proponents of prison slavery try to disguise it as a "rehabilitation" or "vocational" program designed to give prisoners job skills or a trade which can be used upon their release. This is not the case. First, almost without exception the jobs available in prison industries are labor intensive, menial, low skill jobs which tend to be performed by exploited workers in three places: third world dictatorships, by illegal immigrants in the U.S., or by prisoners. Clothes and textile manufacturing is the biggest and most obvious example of this. Second, because the jobs don't exist in the first place the job skills acquired are hardly useful. Does anyone expect a released prisoner to go to Guatemala or El Salvador to get a job sewing clothes for the U.S. market at a dollar a day? Third, if it's rehabilitation then why not pay the prisoner at least minimum wage for his/her work? Fourth, it ignores the reality that the U.S. has at least 8 or 9 million unemployed workers at any given time, many of them highly skilled, who cannot find jobs that pay a meaningful wage to support themselves. So-called "job retraining" programs are a failure because all the training in the world won't create jobs with decent wages. In pursuit of higher profits, i.e. lower salaries, U.S. and multinational corporations have transferred virtually all labor intensive production jobs to third world countries. If prisoners are going to be exploited as slave labor it should be called it what it is.
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They are paid virtually nothing. What do you call that, a job?

Regardless of how much the prison gets, they've used prisoners as slaves to get it. Equate it to how much the plantation got for work produced by its slaves. Make them pay for "room and board."

"A slave is the property of another, politically and socially [a slave is] at a lower level than the mass of people, and [performs] compulsory labour."

"Slaves were initially outsiders, brought by force to serve their new master, or they were in some way expelled from full membership of their society, for instance because of debt or as the result of a criminal trial."

"A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery."

There are many forms of slavery, not all fit every nuance of American slavery. A person could be in the situation of a slave, even though it's called something else, what it's called doesn't change the situation, but may affect attitudes toward it.

I choose to call it what it is, slavery.
 
Well, he did mention them as examples for just laws, but in the context of a discussion on the justness of mj laws. Long thread many tangets, no biggie.
 
blackascoal said:
Superfreak,

They are paid virtually nothing. What do you call that, a job?

Regardless of how much the prison gets, they've used prisoners as slaves to get it. Equate it to how much the plantation got for work produced by its slaves. Make them pay for "room and board."
.
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THIS is where you and I differ in opinions. It absolutely matters what the prison gets. Would it make a difference if the company handed the check to the prisoners and THEN the prison took the money from the prisoners to pay for their incarceration?

To equate that to slaves is ridiculous. Especially your example of the slaves on a plantation above. There is one major difference that you are ignoring. The slaves were innocent. The prisoners are not. The slaves have no choice but to work. The prisoners have a choice in most cases. The slaves could be beaten, raped and killed by their owners with no recourse. The prisoners, despite your "they would be too afraid" comments, have recourse and there are checks in place to try to prevent abuse from employees of the prison.
 
Superfreak said:
THIS is where you and I differ in opinions. It absolutely matters what the prison gets. Would it make a difference if the company handed the check to the prisoners and THEN the prison took the money from the prisoners to pay for their incarceration?

To equate that to slaves is ridiculous. Especially your example of the slaves on a plantation above. There is one major difference that you are ignoring. The slaves were innocent. The prisoners are not. The slaves have no choice but to work. The prisoners have a choice in most cases. The slaves could be beaten, raped and killed by their owners with no recourse. The prisoners, despite your "they would be too afraid" comments, have recourse and there are checks in place to try to prevent abuse from employees of the prison.
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You're right .. we differ in opinion.
 
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