Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy

Darla said:
I agree with you, but I saw that it was a red letter word for SF and it's what he was getting hung up on, so I wanted to take it out and see how he felt about it.
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I do understand your reasoning, but I wanted to make clear that just because he's hung up on it doesn't make it any less true.

You give slaves anything you want and some prisoner/slaves are getting as low as 7 cents an hour .. just so the corporations can claim they paid them something.
 
RStringfield said:
And I see you argue that it is not applied equally, i.e., you stated it is biased towards economic class. So even by your flawed definition of justice it is unjust.
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No String... the APPLICATION and prosecution of the law is unjust. That does not make the law itself unjust.
 
blackascoal said:
I do understand your reasoning, but I wanted to make clear that just because he's hung up on it doesn't make it any less true.

You give slaves anything you want and some prisoner/slaves are getting as low as 7 cents an hour .. just so the corporations can claim they paid them something.
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Would it make you feel better dipshit if the corporations paid the convicts directly and THEN the prison took the money from them to pay for their incarceration?????
 
Darla said:
You just can't bring yourself to use the word "class" can you?

You are right, class does have something to do with it, but class is always intertwined with race and to discuss one without the other is like discussing woman's issues without discussing class...boring, pointless and myopic. And to insist that there is only one reason for such an institutionalized problem is simplistic and has no hope of even beginning to unravel the truth. It is race, and it is class. Why do you have such a need to deny that any racism would be involved at all?
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I said it was about wealth and not race. I have no problem saying it is about class and not race. There are poor people from every gender, race, religion and sexual preference. The more money you have, the more likely you are to get better treatment from the justice system.

I did not deny that race couldn't be involved or that it isn't involved. I said the main issue was wealth (or class). Otherwise, Whitney Houston would have been locked up long ago for her drug use, OJ never would have gotten off, etc. Likewise you see preferential treatment for rich white people.

You look at the incarceration rate among races and say blacks are disproportionate, which is true. But is it because they are black or because that there is a disproportionate amount of blacks below poverty???

Perhaps I am naive, I quite obviously not black and thus I may simply not be seeing the racism that perhaps you do. Because I live in a middle class neighborhood and work with a majority of middle to upper class individuals that I simply don't see it. But that is what leads me to believe it is more about wealth/class than race.
 
Superfreak said:
Would it make you feel better dipshit if the corporations paid the convicts directly and THEN the prison took the money from them to pay for their incarceration?????
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Well sure, it would be a 'tax' then, right?

Seriously, SF, it is not a 'free market' system if others are able to sell the labors of prisoners to make profit at a price less than the market would normally support.
 
Superfreak said:
I said it was about wealth and not race. I have no problem saying it is about class and not race. There are poor people from every gender, race, religion and sexual preference. The more money you have, the more likely you are to get better treatment from the justice system.

I did not deny that race couldn't be involved or that it isn't involved. I said the main issue was wealth (or class). Otherwise, Whitney Houston would have been locked up long ago for her drug use, OJ never would have gotten off, etc. Likewise you see preferential treatment for rich white people.

You look at the incarceration rate among races and say blacks are disproportionate, which is true. But is it because they are black or because that there is a disproportionate amount of blacks below poverty???

Perhaps I am naive, I quite obviously not black and thus I may simply not be seeing the racism that perhaps you do. Because I live in a middle class neighborhood and work with a majority of middle to upper class individuals that I simply don't see it. But that is what leads me to believe it is more about wealth/class than race.
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What would tell the story is to compare the sentencing averages of poor blacks against poor whites. I have only ancectodal evidence, not studies, but i have read some horror stories. I'd like to see the studies, and you know what, I have a meeting in a couple of minutes, but I'd like to look around for that later today.

It is not that you're naive, but as you say, you are a middle to upper class white male. I grew up in the white middle class too. You get very isolated. But if you know any middle or upper class black women, ask them what happens to them in department stores, wearing good clothes and looking like the classy people that they are. It isn't just class.
 
Damocles said:
Well sure, it would be a 'tax' then, right?

Seriously, SF, it is not a 'free market' system if others are able to sell the labors of prisoners to make profit at a price less than the market would normally support.
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However, if it is the same price that corps would pay if they were to outsource the jobs then it most certainly would remain a part of the free market system.

I think we need to see exactly what the corps are paying the prisons.
 
Superfreak said:
Yes, a law can be unjust.

The purpose of a law within a democracy is to establish order, typically moral guidelines that we follow. Don't kill, don't steal etc...
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Here is where we may differ then. A Just law is created only to protect a victim. If there is no direct victim a law is just to control another, it isn't created for justice, but to 'save some money' (seat belt laws) or some other inoccuous reason (If it only saves one life wouldn't it all be worth it?).

I do not think that MJ laws are just if taken in such a context.
 
Superfreak said:
Would it make you feel better dipshit if the corporations paid the convicts directly and THEN the prison took the money from them to pay for their incarceration?????
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It would make me feel better if you took that leap off a cliff asshole.

Your "arguments" are stupid.
 
Darla said:
What would tell the story is to compare the sentencing averages of poor blacks against poor whites. I have only ancectodal evidence, not studies, but i have read some horror stories. I'd like to see the studies, and you know what, I have a meeting in a couple of minutes, but I'd like to look around for that later today.

It is not that you're naive, but as you say, you are a middle to upper class white male. I grew up in the white middle class too. You get very isolated. But if you know any middle or upper class black women, ask them what happens to them in department stores, wearing good clothes and looking like the classy people that they are. It isn't just class.
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I would love to see a study on that, because it would certainly as you say show racial bias and the extent to which it exists in sentencing.

There are middle and upper class black women? WHO THE HELL let that happen. :shock:

;)

totally kidding (this has been inserted in case old man donny is reading and gets confused by the preceding smiley that is winking)
 
Superfreak said:
However, if it is the same price that corps would pay if they were to outsource the jobs then it most certainly would remain a part of the free market system.

I think we need to see exactly what the corps are paying the prisons.
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There would be no reason to justify using convicts to take credit card numbers over the phone other than cost-cutting measures, significant cost-cutting as the publicizing of the fact it is convicts taking your calls has to hit the bottom line, they have to offset that. If they had to pay the same as they would any other outsourcing company, they would pay the outsourcing company over convicts any day.
 
blackascoal said:
It would make me feel better if you took that leap off a cliff asshole.

Your "arguments" are stupid.
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Please demonstrate how they are stupid BAC. You continue your chants of slavery yet fail to address any of my points. Darla and others that disagree don't seem to have a problem discussing the issue. Enlighten me. Enough of your bullshit crying ... defend your position.
 
Damocles said:
Here is where we may differ then. A Just law is created only to protect a victim. If there is no direct victim a law is just to control another, it isn't created for justice, but to 'save some money' (seat belt laws) or some other inoccuous reason (If it only saves one life wouldn't it all be worth it?).

I do not think that MJ laws are just if taken in such a context.
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In that context I would agree. I think the only thing we disagree on is the definition of just.
 
Damocles said:
There would be no reason to justify using convicts to take credit card numbers over the phone other than cost-cutting measures, significant cost-cutting as the publicizing of the fact it is convicts taking your calls has to hit the bottom line, they have to offset that. If they had to pay the same as they would any other outsourcing company, they would pay the outsourcing company over convicts any day.
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1) Cost of relocating - you could still have the same cost of labor, but not have to relocate

2) Public relations - they would then not be "outsourcing", but keeping the jobs here AND reducing tax payers liabilities

3) Rehabilitation
 
Superfreak said:
1) Cost of relocating - you could still have the same cost of labor, but not have to relocate

2) Public relations - they would then not be "outsourcing", but keeping the jobs here AND reducing tax payers liabilities

3) Rehabilitation
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Everthing's not about money and pr, you sick imp. Captive submarket labor is immoral.
 
Many of us have already engaged in the study of racial disparities in sentecing .. which is why we know what we're talking about. This isn't classism, it's racism.

July 18, 2007

The Sentencing Project Examines Racial, Ethnic Prison Disparity in New Report
http://www.sentencingproject.org/NewsDetails.aspx?NewsID=454

A new analysis by The Sentencing Project provides a regional examination of the racial and ethnic dynamics of incarceration in the U.S., and finds broad variations in racial disparity among the 50 states. The report, Uneven Justice: State Rates of Incarceration by Race and Ethnicity, finds that African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six (5.6) times the rate of whites and Hispanics nearly double (1.8) the rate.

Issue Area(s): Sentencing Policy, Incarceration, Racial Disparity, Drug Policy

The report also reveals wide variation in incarceration by state, with states in the Northeast and Midwest exhibiting the greatest black-to-white disparity in incarceration. In five states - Iowa, Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Wisconsin - African Americans are incarcerated at more than ten times the rate of whites.

"Racial disparities in incarceration reflect a failure of social and economic interventions to address crime effectively and also indicate racial bias in the justice system," stated Marc Mauer, Executive Director of The Sentencing Project. "The broad variation in the use of incarceration nationally suggests that policy decisions can play a key role in determining the size and composition of the prison population."

The report extends the findings of previous analyses by incorporating jail populations in the overall incarceration rate and by assessing the impact of incarceration on the Hispanic community, representing an increasing share of the prison population. The state figures for Hispanic incarceration also reveal broad variation nationally. Three states - Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania - have a Hispanic-to-white ratio of incarceration more than three times the national average.

Prior research from the Department of Justice has demonstrated that if current trends continue, one in three black males and one in six Hispanic males born today can expect to go to prison. Rates for women are lower overall, but exhibit similar racial and ethnic disparities.

To address the broad disparities in the criminal justice system, The Sentencing Project urges policymakers to implement a variety of measures.

These include:

Revisit the domestic drug control strategy, including recalibrating sentencing laws, such as the federal cocaine statutes which result in disproportionate numbers of low-level offenders being prosecuted;

Revisit the wisdom of mandatory minimum sentencing and restore appropriate judicial discretion to incorporate individual circumstances in the sentencing decision;

Establish enforceable and binding standards for indigent defense that ensure the provision of quality representation for all defendants;

Mandate that all legislation affecting the prison population be accompanied by a Racial Impact Statement to document the projected consequences for persons of color.
 
Superfreak said:
I said it was about wealth and not race. I have no problem saying it is about class and not race. There are poor people from every gender, race, religion and sexual preference. The more money you have, the more likely you are to get better treatment from the justice system.

I did not deny that race couldn't be involved or that it isn't involved. I said the main issue was wealth (or class). Otherwise, Whitney Houston would have been locked up long ago for her drug use, OJ never would have gotten off, etc. Likewise you see preferential treatment for rich white people.

You look at the incarceration rate among races and say blacks are disproportionate, which is true. But is it because they are black or because that there is a disproportionate amount of blacks below poverty???

Perhaps I am naive, I quite obviously not black and thus I may simply not be seeing the racism that perhaps you do. Because I live in a middle class neighborhood and work with a majority of middle to upper class individuals that I simply don't see it. But that is what leads me to believe it is more about wealth/class than race.
Click to expand...

I said it was about wealth and not race. I have no problem saying it is about class and not race. There are poor people from every gender, race, religion and sexual preference. The more money you have, the more likely you are to get better treatment from the justice system.

Perhaps I am naive, I quite obviously not black and thus I may simply not be seeing the racism that perhaps you do. Because I live in a middle class neighborhood and work with a majority of middle to upper class individuals that I simply don't see it.


Of course you or I don’t see it. But, you or I can certainly read. Ever read about “driving while black”? Ever heard of “jury bias”.

I submit that blacks face a higher chance of being arrested because they are targeted (consciously or subconsciously) by law enforcement.

I submit that a black man is more likely to be found guilty by a jury because of his skin color, and a societal bias (conscious or subconscious) which assumes that a black man that has been arrested “must” have been guilty.

Ergo, if you’re wearing dark skin, you face a higher chance of arrest and conviction, than lighter skinned people who are engaged in similar illegal activities.


Yes, class is a factor in our justice system. But, it is naive to suggest race doesn't factor in as well.
 
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