The abortion issue...

[Cancel7]

The only thing I really want to say on this thread (other than what I’ve already said), is that, in my experience, people whom have had an abortion affect their lives in a negative way, talk about it a lot on the internet. I have seen women pouring their “guilt” out on the abortion board on the old netscape boards, while ant-choice warriors embraced them, encouraged them to denounce abortion, and then, and this was the best, offered them “forgiveness.” Let them know it was now alright, to “forgive themselves” for making the choice, because they were finding redemption by advocating that the very choice they utilized, be taken from others.

And while I do not doubt the sincerity of those on this board, like Care and Damo, whose posts on abortion are often, or always, colored by their own negative experiences, I do not like the implication that negative experiences are all there are. In fact, many, many women, have abortions, feel nothing but relief, and never look back. Many others, have abortions, feel mostly relief tinged with some sadness, and rarely look back. It is not that traumatic in most cases.

Let’s not forget the women who suffered no damage. They are legion.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

What anti-choicers are proposing is forcing a woman to be a baby machine against her will.

Uhmmm... no one forced the woman to engage in the practice that caused her to become a baby machine, she did that of her own free will. If women just randomly became pregnant through no fault of their own, YOU would have a point! But... that isn't how the birds and bees work, so... you don't!

Jarhead, I have already answered you, learn how to use the little bar to the right with the up/down arrows... it is your friend!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

In fact, many, many women, have abortions, feel nothing but relief, and never look back.

So do a lot of serial killers, what is your point?

 

[LadyT]

there is no difference tiana....the fertilized egg of the eagle was the offspring of the eagle, just as the fertilized egg/embryo/fetus is the offspring of a human.... as i said, there is no difference. abortion does not and should not even come in to the picture of this discussion, nor commentary....

is a fetus the offspring of the mother, YES. PERIOD.... it's ignorant to say or even imply otherwise.

ACCEPT THE TRUTH.

does a fetus, although human, have the same value and worth and protections as a born child is what the debate should be about.

but NOT about whether a fetus is human, for goodness sakes!

women are choosing to terminate their offspring, their babies, before they are born for various different reasons.....simple as that.

if you believe that it still is a personal issue between the woman and her doctor, that's fine with me.... if push came to shove, i probably can agree with you on this... but why have to LIE about what is being terminated in a termination of pregnancy....to make you mentally ''feel'' better? i just don't get it?

i can assure you that when i had an abortion, i had one because i was afraid to have my baby, a child at the time.... i was not scared of having an embryo or a fetus or a toenail or a glob of cells.... it was the baby i was afraid to have on my own....and i was afraid to tell my extremely strict parents about being pregnant with child.... and many other reasons.

care

My standpoint on abortion has always been from the standpoint of automony over one's body. Whether or not that embryo can can't or can't gestate outside the woman's body doesn't surmount the fact that the goverment would essentially have dominion over her body if it was outlawed, which is wrong from every stand point. I also think forcing you to go ahead with the pregnancy despite your wishes would have been completely unethical. From what I see, its not all fun and games.

 

[Cancel7]

Listen Dixie...I understand you, I really do.

If someone transplanted your brain into a bird, the poor thing would become so confused, it would fly backwards into a tree. The only way someone with your IQ and obvious lack of any other charms could ever get laid, would be if a woman became so drunk that she forgot not only who she was, but from what species she came.

Upon waking up the next afternoon and realizing what she had sex with, the woman would be bound to make a mad dash to her doctor and get the morning after pill. Were that to fail, we could expect her to have an abortion.

And so men like you, where else would I expect to find you but protesting outside an abortion clinic, desperately trying to save your place in the shallow end of the gene pool?

But don't for one moment think that anything you, a dirty war supporter who cheers the painful deaths of young children ALREADY BORN, has anything to say about the morals of anyone.

 

[LadyT]

The whole, "It is her body!" argument falls flat when one patient in the room is gauranteed to die because of her choice. It is their entire life, and because they are silent and unseeable we deny them any voice.

No it doesn't fall flat. Its still her body and she should have to house an embryo for 9 months if she doesn't want to.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

My standpoint on abortion has always been from the standpoint of automony over one's body.

Is drinking and driving legal? Why not? We should all have autonomy over our own bodies, and if we want to put large quantities of alcohol in it and drive a car, that should be left up to us, right?

How about assault and battery? If we want to use our bodies to beat hell out of somebody, shouldn't we have that autonomy over our bodies as well? No? Why not?

Seems to me, we have quite a few laws that restrict our bodily autonomy, especially when it involves another persons rights. Abortion is the same thing, there is another person involved, you just want to pretend they are not a person, and disregard their rights in this matter with regard to the debate.

 

[Jarod]

Except when they are at a fetal stage, then it is okay for them to grant others the right to take their life...

It depends entirely on when you define "people"...

Personally, I wouldn't advocate making it criminal because it wouldn't stop the activity, it would just ensure that those with even less compunction of morality would enter the same. It would do the opposite of what I want, which is to ensure notification can happen, that we make it more rare by providing even more choice and hopefully, in the end, we can simply end the practice.

The whole, "It is her body!" argument falls flat when one patient in the room is gauranteed to die because of her choice. It is their entire life, and because they are silent and unseeable we deny them any voice.

And to answer the "Men have no say whatsoever because they can't get pregnant" argument presented by another above...

This is much like saying, "White people cannot possibly understand the hardship of black people and therefore cannot properly represent them."

I agree with you on the ultimate goal, and that making it illegal will not lead to that ultimate goal.

I think that because it is a womans body she should be allowed to make the choice to have a babby or not...

It clearly should not be the governments choice.



So, back to the topic...

Is the "pro-life" title a mis-use of the words... Should it be anti-choice or pro-criminalizaton or something like that. I am both PRO-LIFE and for keeping abortion a legal choice.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Darla, give it up, you are not my kind of woman! I am attracted to smart women, and those who have compassion for others. Ignorant people who believe it's alright to kill little unborn babies, and constantly belittle others who don't agree with them, are a complete turn-off to me.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I am both PRO-LIFE and for keeping abortion a legal choice.

And I am both PRO-CHOICE and for outlawing the intentional murdering of innocent human life!

 

[Jarod]

I am both PRO-LIFE and for keeping abortion a legal choice.

And I am both PRO-CHOICE and for outlawing the intentional murdering of innocent human life!

Explain? How are you for giving a choice if you are for making it illegal?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Explain? How are you for giving a choice if you are for making it illegal?

The same exact way you are pro-life, and also for keeping abortion legal.

 

[LadyT]

My standpoint on abortion has always been from the standpoint of automony over one's body.

Is drinking and driving legal? Why not? We should all have autonomy over our own bodies, and if we want to put large quantities of alcohol in it and drive a car, that should be left up to us, right?

Ummmm.....how does driving a car equate to autonomy over your body?

How about assault and battery? If we want to use our bodies to beat hell out of somebody, shouldn't we have that autonomy over our bodies as well? No? Why not?

Ummmm, because unless you're beating up yourself, you're violating the autonomy of someone else's body.

Seems to me, we have quite a few laws that restrict our bodily autonomy, especially when it involves another persons rights.

Maybe. Just none of the one's you mentioned in your piss poor analogies.

Abortion is the same thing, there is another person involved, you just want to pretend they are not a person, and disregard their rights in this matter with regard to the debate.

Well, again, I've never advocated actively killing the extracted fetus. If you want to declare it a citizen, try to incubate it and raise it, by all means. In so far as the woman's body is concerned, you don't have the right to tell her what to do with it. Period. I couldn't demand that you give me your kidney because my life would depend on it could I?

 

[Damocles]

My standpoint on abortion has always been from the standpoint of automony over one's body. Whether or not that embryo can can't or can't gestate outside the woman's body doesn't surmount the fact that the goverment would essentially have dominion over her body if it was outlawed, which is wrong from every stand point. I also think forcing you to go ahead with the pregnancy despite your wishes would have been completely unethical. From what I see, its not all fun and games.

It gives others the dominion over another body too. There is one life involved that is totally ignored in this one. The issue is far more complex than one body.

 

[Jarod]

Explain? How are you for giving a choice if you are for making it illegal?

The same exact way you are pro-life, and also for keeping abortion legal.

No, that would be impossable. You see.... and Ill explain it again for your benefit...

I am against women having abortions, I think they should deliver and put the baby up for adoption if they dont want it. I am for the life!

However I belive this is an issue where there is a lot of debate and differing opinions, and in such a case I think the government should be hands off and thus I am against making it illegal.

NOW, can you explain your claim that you are for choice but also for making it illegal? How is that possable?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Well, again, I've never advocated actively killing the extracted fetus. If you want to declare it a citizen, try to incubate it and raise it, by all means. In so far as the woman's body is concerned, you don't have the right to tell her what to do with it. Period. I couldn't demand that you give me your kidney because my life would depend on it could I?

Uh uh. You don't want to go there. The reason is that this whole "try to save the fetus" thing is just another stalking horse for making abortion unavailable.

Suppose they do manage to mandate "heroic" efforts to "save" an aborted fetus. Who's going to pay for those measures? That's the part they never want to talk about. Such an effort is likely to be exceedingly expensive: upwards of half a million or more. And you can bet they will insist that the woman choosing an abortion must bear the cost.

Who will be able to get abortions is each one costs half a million or more?

 

[maineman]

Seems to me, we have quite a few laws that restrict our bodily autonomy, especially when it involves another persons rights. Abortion is the same thing, there is another person involved, you just want to pretend they are not a person, and disregard their rights in this matter with regard to the debate.

unfortunately for you, the law of the land disagrees with you. Tough shit.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Ummmm.....how does driving a car equate to automy over your body?

Uhmmmm.. because your body gets in the car and drives it.

Ummmm, because unless you're beating up yourself, you're violating the autonomy of someone else's body.

Correct, and the abortion procedure violates the autonomy of someone elses body as well, the unborn human baby. Furthermore, it also violates the autonomy of the body belonging to the father of the infant, as the infant is 50% his as well.

Well, again, I've never advocated actively killing the extracted fetus. If you want to declare it a citizen, try to incubate it and raise it, by all means. In so far as the woman's body is concerned, you don't have the right to tell her what to do with it. Period. I couldn't demand that you give me your kidney because my life would depend on it could I?

Yes, you advocate sucking the fetus down a tube into a jar and discarding it as hazardous waste. You oppose any concept of recognizing said fetus as a human being with rights, and any measure to try and preserve said fetus in a living state. You continue to insist that women have some "right" to kill innocent human life, and that is not the case in any other instance of society. We simply do not have the right to end innocent human life at our discretion, except in the case of abortion.

 

[maineman]

nobody has the right to kill innocent human life...and when the supreme court decides that fetuses are innocent human life, women will no longer be able to have abortions.... but until they change their minds on this issue, you are wrong. deal with it.

 

[maineman]

and your "fetus as property" argument is pretty foul