The evolution of complex life

Cypress said:
I assume complex multicellular organisms evolved because there are advantages to having sensory perception, exoskeletons, self-mobility, and speed.

The curious thing about complex multicellular animals is they exploded on the evolutionary scene in just about a period of 30 million years, after three billion years of nothing but one celled microbes occupying the planet
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What advantages if the only purpose was to pass on genetic material? At least on Earth, some life evolved to higher and higher forms.

George Carlin had a funny bit one time about "Save the Planet". The planet will be fine. It's people who will be fucked. Life will go on until something happens that completely sterilizes the planet.
 
Doc Dutch said:
What advantages if the only purpose was to pass on genetic material? At least on Earth, some life evolved to higher and higher forms.

George Carlin had a funny bit one time about "Save the Planet". The planet will be fine. It's people who will be fucked. Life will go on until something happens that completely sterilizes the planet.
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Evolution is an arms race of sorts. Better defenses or better predatory traits will advantage the survival of genetic information, aka exoskeletons, vision, mobility, speed, locomotion, sensory perception.

The reason I don't think human cognition is the pinnacle of evolutionary advantage is because we seem to be killing and poisoning ourselves with the accoutrements of civilization, and we engineered our way into being way out of balance with a sustainable environment. I don't necessarily see human intelligence as the inevitable and logical consequence of evolution at it's pinnacle.
 
Cypress said:
Evolution is an arms race of sorts. Better defenses or better predatory traits will advantage the survival of genetic information, aka exoskeletons, vision, mobility, speed, locomotion, sensory perception.

The reason I don't think human cognition is the pinnacle of evolutionary advantage is because we seem to be killing and poisoning ourselves with the accoutrements of civilization, and we engineered our way into being way out of balance with a sustainable environment. I don't necessarily see human intelligence as the inevitable and logical consequence of evolution at it's pinnacle.
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Agreed. Intelligence is one of the best weapons as proved by both predators and human beings.

Agreed about humans, but not intelligence as a goal. Humans, at best, are semi-civilized apes. Strip the veneer of civilization away such as a natural disaster, and it's easy to see human revert to among the most vicious and brutal creatures on the planet. They are willing to kill their own, including children, to survive. Ergo, I agree 100% that humans aren't the pinnacle of anything except the biggest mass killers on the planet.

That said, intelligence is a natural goal of life. At least on Earth.
 
If the human species is indeed the pinnacle of animal kingdom evolution,

and despite there being about eight billion of us destroying the planet,

that has not yet be established,

than that would by itself serve as ABSOLUTE PROOF

that the universe was not a "purposeful intelligent design."
 
NiftyNiblick said:
If the human species is indeed the pinnacle of animal kingdom evolution,

and despite there being about eight billion of us destroying the planet,

that has not yet be established,

than that would by itself serve as ABSOLUTE PROOF

that the universe was not a "purposeful intelligent design."
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I'm pretty confident we're not. We're a step on the evolutionary ladder...with a lot of steps to go before reaching perfection.

978-3-540-29678-2_5_Part_Fig1-3118_HTML.jpg
 
Doc Dutch said:
I'm pretty confident we're not. We're a step on the evolutionary ladder...with a lot of steps to go before reaching perfection.

978-3-540-29678-2_5_Part_Fig1-3118_HTML.jpg
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You list cats above dogs. I like both.

However cats are very, very strong on the instinctive and intuitive.

Dogs clearly seem to have the greater learning capacity.

An average pet dog knows 200 words in the language of it human family members, and 600 is not terribly unusual.
 
Cypress said:
Nice.

If the goal of evolution is the transmission of genetic information to successive generations, I don't see human cognition necessarily being superior to the arthropod. Insects have been around for ~400 million years, they outlived the dinosaurs, they lived through every mass extinction event, and they will probably outlast mammals and primates. I've heard of bugs that thrive in polluted water.
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The goal of life is survival. Darwin proved that long ago. Everything that our cells, our tissues, our bodies do is geared towards that one thing -- survival. The same is true of every other living organism on this planet. RNA/DNA are the memory chips that biological life uses to remember what works, and forget what doesn't.

Why? That's what I think we all want to know.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
You list cats above dogs. I like both.

However cats are very, very strong on the instinctive and intuitive.

Dogs clearly seem to have the greater learning capacity.

An average pet dog knows 200 words in the language of it human family members, and 600 is not terribly unusual.
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I was looking for a matching graphic. Not sure why they count cats above dogs.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Just quit. Him too. This is a cool and very rare intelligent discussion. You boys quit fucking it up. Thanks. Love, mom
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My instincts are telling me Perry isn't everything he's claiming to be. :)

Meanwhile, back to predators as superior lifeforms. If that's the case, then maybe Stephen Hawking's paranoia about space aliens had some validity.

"How to Serve Man".....It's a cookbook!


This is on Tubi https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4146128/
childhoods-end-part-2-karellen-party.jpg
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Intelligence is one of the best weapons as proved by both predators and human beings.

Agreed about humans, but not intelligence as a goal. Humans, at best, are semi-civilized apes. Strip the veneer of civilization away such as a natural disaster, and it's easy to see human revert to among the most vicious and brutal creatures on the planet. They are willing to kill their own, including children, to survive. Ergo, I agree 100% that humans aren't the pinnacle of anything except the biggest mass killers on the planet.

That said, intelligence is a natural goal of life. At least on Earth.
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Survival is the goal of all species on this planet. In your Doomsday scenario, we would definitely see that happening on a horrendous scale as we killed each other for supplies. You know what else we would see? The best survival mechanism of all -- cooperation. Your very body exists as it does because eons ago simple cells cooperated for the survival of both. Humans and other species have evolved to cooperate for survival for as long as life has existed here.

I'd like to know the why of that, wouldn't you?
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Survival is the goal of all species on this planet. In your Doomsday scenario, we would definitely see that happening on a horrendous scale as we killed each other for supplies. You know what else we would see? The best survival mechanism of all -- cooperation. Your very body exists as it does because eons ago simple cells cooperated for the survival of both. Humans and other species have evolved to cooperate for survival for as long as life has existed here.

I'd like to know the why of that, wouldn't you?
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Agreed. Jungle Rules; kill or be killed. Again, this makes the predators most likely to survive. The aforementioned Red Queen hypothesis points out that, to survive, the prey would have to smarten up or be very prolific like rabbits. This requires predators to smarten up too or starve. Since mankind is weak as a predator, IMO, we smartened up as prey in order to avoid being eaten.

In the modern age, this could explain why there are so many idiots around: there aren't enough predators to take out the stupid ones. :)

Agreed the smarter option is to work together as a team. You can see which members of JPP are likely to do so and which are likely to steal and murder others.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
The goal of life is survival. Darwin proved that long ago. Everything that our cells, our tissues, our bodies do is geared towards that one thing -- survival. The same is true of every other living organism on this planet. RNA/DNA are the memory chips that biological life uses to remember what works, and forget what doesn't.

Why? That's what I think we all want to know.
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Yes. We are driven by survival and the desire to reproduce. Animals are driven by the sex drive to ensure their genetic information survives past their life span. The most poetic version of that instinct is the salmon that risks everything to make it upstream to the headwaters, just to spawn and then die in a final creative act.

You are right, life is an amazing thing. At this time, we can't explain just by chemistry or physics, the biological organism seems to be more than the sum of it's parts.
 
Cypress said:
Yes. We are driven by survival and the desire to reproduce. Animals are driven by the sex drive to ensure their genetic information survives past their life span. The most poetic version of that instinct is the salmon that risks everything to make it upstream to the headwaters, just to spawn and then die in a final creative act.

You are right, life is an amazing thing. At this time, we can't explain just by chemistry or physics, the biological organism seems to be more than the sum of it's parts.
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The missing link
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Intelligence is one of the best weapons as proved by both predators and human beings.

Agreed about humans, but not intelligence as a goal. Humans, at best, are semi-civilized apes. Strip the veneer of civilization away such as a natural disaster, and it's easy to see human revert to among the most vicious and brutal creatures on the planet. They are willing to kill their own, including children, to survive. Ergo, I agree 100% that humans aren't the pinnacle of anything except the biggest mass killers on the planet.

That said, intelligence is a natural goal of life. At least on Earth.
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Agree that intelligence is an advantageous trait in the evolutionary scheme. Dolphins, tigers, orcas, chimpanzees are smart and effective predators.

I question whether the intelligence necessary to build technology, cities, WMDs, pesticides is really an evolutionary advantage, something that evolution naturally strives for. I feel like humans are self destructive and possibly capable of self annihilation. That doesn't seem like a genetically favorable form of evolution, and if life is geared toward achieving that, it doesn't say much positive about life and biological evolution.
 
Cypress said:
Agree that intelligence is an advantageous trait in the evolutionary scheme. Dolphins, tigers, orcas, chimpanzees are smart and effective predators.

I question whether the intelligence necessary to build technology, cities, WMDs, pesticides is really an evolutionary advantage, something that evolution naturally strives for. I feel like humans are self destructive and possibly capable of self annihilation. That doesn't seem like a genetically favorable form of evolution, and if life is geared toward achieving that, it doesn't say much positive about life and biological evolution.
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Technology is great till inevitably we come up with advanced technology that we use to destroy culture back to cave man days.The ultimate Catch 22
 
Cypress said:
Agree that intelligence is an advantageous trait in the evolutionary scheme. Dolphins, tigers, orcas, chimpanzees are smart and effective predators.

I question whether the intelligence necessary to build technology, cities, WMDs, pesticides is really an evolutionary advantage, something that evolution naturally strives for. I feel like humans are self destructive and possibly capable of self annihilation. That doesn't seem like a genetically favorable form of evolution, and if life is geared toward achieving that, it doesn't say much positive about life and biological evolution.
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It doesn't have to be a goal to make styrofoam cups (see George Carlin), it can only be a consequence.

Again, using the Red Queen hypothesis, prey evolves to evade predators. For simians, this involved an excellent tree climbing ability. A consequence of that ability is to reach fruits at the tops of trees such as bananas. Simians who like bananas will be getting a twofer.

Likewise, human prey are lacking in fangs and claws plus are slower than four-legged predators. Many animals can use tools, but they are all limited in usage. Mankind expanded up tool-making skills which led to weapons and creating shelters. As the beginning of 2001: A Space Odyssey demonstrated, our tool-making advanced from a bone mace to a nuclear weapon in orbit. In that case, evolution didn't favor making nukes, it favored mankind surviving to procreate by making better tools for survival. Nukes were only a consequence of our more intelligent tool-making abilities.

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Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Jungle Rules; kill or be killed. Again, this makes the predators most likely to survive. The aforementioned Red Queen hypothesis points out that, to survive, the prey would have to smarten up or be very prolific like rabbits. This requires predators to smarten up too or starve. Since mankind is weak as a predator, IMO, we smartened up as prey in order to avoid being eaten.

In the modern age, this could explain why there are so many idiots around: there aren't enough predators to take out the stupid ones. :)

Agreed the smarter option is to work together as a team. You can see which members of JPP are likely to do so and which are likely to steal and murder others.
Click to expand...

Predators -- at least in nature -- don't tend to be overly bright. Their survival is dependent on the availability of prey, too. You've no doubt heard about how wolf populations rise and fall with the number of prey animals in their area. Wolves are interesting because they live in and hunt in communal groups, much like whales and dolphins. Unlike other predators like hawks, owls (*sob*), tigers, etc. they developed smarts and cooperation as a survival technique. But even so, if their prey dies off so do they.
 
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