## The Official Madmen Thread ##

Wait this one might be better. I love Peggy so much. "Abe got stabbed" And then that shit happens grimace. Awesome.

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Rana said:
I still have to watch...I don't watch it when Bud is in town, lol, he asks too many questions while I am watching it with him. I hate when someone oes that, so I reord it and etch it, later, lol. I am so bad!
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nothing takes me out of a show more than some mouth breather asking something every 30 seconds. I've banned certain people from watching shows with me cause they totally suck. In fact these days I go into isolation for the shows I really care about, or will only accept another diehard that knows to keep their mouth shut.
 
Darla said:
And what about Hot Betty back and better than ever? I loved it! Using Don as a booty call and then going all Draper on him the next morning by having a happy breakfast with her husband and giving Don one knowing glance.
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Role reversal is a big theme for Don this season.

I was relatively late to the show, so I didn't even really know that Betty existed. I like that Betty better than the regular Betty.
 
lorax, bro, you really need to watch the first few seasons. season 3 is the best imo. honestly the show is completely different from the first three seasons vs. the last 3.. not in a good or bad way, just very very different in a lot of respects.
 
Owl in Now said:
lorax, bro, you really need to watch the first few seasons. season 3 is the best imo. honestly the show is completely different from the first three seasons vs. the last 3.. not in a good or bad way, just very very different in a lot of respects.
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Yeah, definitely - I'll catch up one of these days.

In general, though I'm a fan, I'm not one of those "best show on TV" Mad Men people. I like it & enjoy watching it, but it doesn't really transcend for me (in a way that a show like Breaking Bad does, for example - though it's probably not fair to compare the 2).
 
I love mad men, and I looove breaking bad. But yeah they are just so different I wouldn't even know when to begin comparing them.
 
Mad Men is my favorite tv show ever. Onceler once you go back and view it from the beginning you will have a whole different view of Betty. Her character has been really ech the past few years, but in seasons 1-3 i thought she was awesome. I watched them again recently and realized that January Jones can act, she and Jon Hamm have great chemistry, and Betty is pretty awesome. She is the only woman on that show who is as cuttingly sarcastic as Don and always saw right through him and gave him a real battle. Betty obviously has tons of flaw and is not the most likable person but she's a great character.
 
She is the only woman on that show who is as cuttingly sarcastic as Don and always saw right through him and gave him a real battle. Betty obviously has tons of flaw and is not the most likable person but she's a great character.
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disagree on this, betty was pretty oblivious to not only don's activities but also his past and true self for pretty much the entire first few seasons. A lot of times she was infantilized and unhappy and not even as to sure why. So in addition to her not being aware of don's true persona I wouldn't even call her that self aware either. I would actually call her actually one of the most out of touch and tragic characters on the show.
 
Darla said:
Mad Men is my favorite tv show ever. Onceler once you go back and view it from the beginning you will have a whole different view of Betty. Her character has been really ech the past few years, but in seasons 1-3 i thought she was awesome. I watched them again recently and realized that January Jones can act, she and Jon Hamm have great chemistry, and Betty is pretty awesome. She is the only woman on that show who is as cuttingly sarcastic as Don and always saw right through him and gave him a real battle. Betty obviously has tons of flaw and is not the most likable person but she's a great character.
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I'll have to check the early stuff out. Since I started watching, Betty has been too one-dimensionally annoying. She was great on Sunday, though - in a bad way, but great nonetheless.
 
While there really isn't a comparison between Breaking Bad & Mad Men on any level, I did start thinking about it for some reason, and realized that both main characters are making the transition from somewhat sympathetic to pure villain. Since I started watching the show, I was rooting for DD almost subconsciously, even though he was still engaged in some bad behavior - same with WW.

This is the 1st season where DD has basically destroyed any goodwill he might have had before; he's just become despicable, imo. Started happening awhile ago w/ WW.
 
Owl in Now said:
disagree on this, betty was pretty oblivious to not only don's activities but also his past and true self for pretty much the entire first few seasons. A lot of times she was infantilized and unhappy and not even as to sure why. So in addition to her not being aware of don's true persona I wouldn't even call her that self aware either. I would actually call her actually one of the most out of touch and tragic characters on the show. [/COLOR]
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After that creepy comedian tells her that Don was screwing his wife, she is no longer in denial or oblivious. She is very cutting towards Don. One of the best scenes is when he tells her that his refusal to sign a contract with his company has nothing to do with her, and explains that he needs to be free, she very sarcastically says, you're right Don, what could that possible have to do with me? And he just stares at her. She immediately grasped all of the implications of what he was saying. And that was in Season II. She is definitely a tragic figure at that time though, i agree with that.
 
Thing1 said:
While there really isn't a comparison between Breaking Bad & Mad Men on any level, I did start thinking about it for some reason, and realized that both main characters are making the transition from somewhat sympathetic to pure villain. Since I started watching the show, I was rooting for DD almost subconsciously, even though he was still engaged in some bad behavior - same with WW.

This is the 1st season where DD has basically destroyed any goodwill he might have had before; he's just become despicable, imo. Started happening awhile ago w/ WW.
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Good point.
 
Darla said:
After that creepy comedian tells her that Don was screwing his wife, she is no longer in denial or oblivious. She is very cutting towards Don. One of the best scenes is when he tells her that his refusal to sign a contract with his company has nothing to do with her, and explains that he needs to be free, she very sarcastically says, you're right Don, what could that possible have to do with me? And he just stares at her. She immediately grasped all of the implications of what he was saying. And that was in Season II. She is definitely a tragic figure at that time though, i agree with that.
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ok but If I were to grant you that, it's still very late season 2. so maybe for 66% of the time she was oblivious :)

I still think it's going a bit to far though to treat her as some oracle with a piercing vision of one's character.
 
Owl in Now said:
ok but If I were to grant you that, it's still very late season 2. so maybe for 66% of the time she was oblivious :)

I still think it's going a bit to far though to treat her as some oracle with a piercing vision of one's character.
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You're right. I was surprised at how sharp she was on reviewing though. She is the only woman who is as cuttingly sarcastic as Don. But you're right that she was consciously oblivious for the first season. I shouldn't have said "always" saw right through him. She is definitely his match now though, and I think some of that was there from the beginning and I hadn't noticed.
 
Thing1 said:
While there really isn't a comparison between Breaking Bad & Mad Men on any level, I did start thinking about it for some reason, and realized that both main characters are making the transition from somewhat sympathetic to pure villain. Since I started watching the show, I was rooting for DD almost subconsciously, even though he was still engaged in some bad behavior - same with WW.

This is the 1st season where DD has basically destroyed any goodwill he might have had before; he's just become despicable, imo. Started happening awhile ago w/ WW.
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I think this actually has less to do with these two shows in particular vs. the direction most TV and art is heading these days.

(brace yourself for a pie in the sky theory not backed up by much other than my own assertions):

There used to be a time in literature, in art, and film where the whole theme of "good vs. evil" (in a very black and white sense) was very prevalent. Think lord of the rings. You have your good guys, the elves, man, hobbits, vs. a classically evil for the sake of evil, bad for the sake of bad foreboding force of darkness.

We have slowly been moving away from that over the generations, and I am sure a lot of it has to do with a cultural shift of things not being so black and white, that there is a lot of nuance to everyday life.

So now we are at the point where we tell complicated stories from complicated protagonists. Take the sopranos, he's a captain in the mafia, but the viewer is still expected to relate to tony soprano on some level. For any of you guys that watch game of thrones, they take this to the 9th degree, where you are hating some characters one minute then sympathizing with them the next. Dexter is a serial killer, and although he "only kills bad people" he isn't doing this out of some selfless mission, it's because it's the only way to channel his seriously mentally fucked up psyche. You are still expected to route for him though, even though if Dexter was a real life person you'd much more likely have the reaction of "yeah dude... seriously, that's not cool."

Unconventional protagonists abound in today's art mediums. And mad men and breaking bad are no different.

However, I do think there is a slight difference between the last two I just mentioned.

With breaking bad, walt whitman did not start off as a "bad character." The whole very premise of that show is that we were starting from a place of GOOD, and that he would slowly evolve (devolve?) into something else entirely. At the begining of the series, walt is a very sympathetic character, dying from cancer, and is purely looking for a way to make sure his family is taken care of when he is gone. He has a normal job, a normal life, and a normal family.

In contrast, Don Draper was always meant to be an asshole. The very first episode of mad men (which you haven't seen ;) ) has don draper talking to some arty hippie girl, and you just are led to believe that Don has this cool suave city life with hookups all around the city, only to be shellshocked by the ending of him driving out to the burbs and being introduced to his wife and family as an afterthought. The very first episode you were presented with one image of don only to have it flipped on it's head by the ending.

So while yes, both those shows have unconventional protagonists, I think the starting point for both of them is a very different place. And that makes the shows very different in that regard.

this is probably the longest post I have typed on JPP in 3+ months
 
Owl in Now said:
I think this actually has less to do with these two shows in particular vs. the direction most TV and art is heading these days.

(brace yourself for a pie in the sky theory not backed up by much other than my own assertions):

There used to be a time in literature, in art, and film where the whole theme of "good vs. evil" (in a very black and white sense) was very prevalent. Think lord of the rings. You have your good guys, the elves, man, hobbits, vs. a classically evil for the sake of evil, bad for the sake of bad foreboding force of darkness.

We have slowly been moving away from that over the generations, and I am sure a lot of it has to do with a cultural shift of things not being so black and white, that there is a lot of nuance to everyday life.

So now we are at the point where we tell complicated stories from complicated protagonists. Take the sopranos, he's a captain in the mafia, but the viewer is still expected to relate to tony soprano on some level. For any of you guys that watch game of thrones, they take this to the 9th degree, where you are hating some characters one minute then sympathizing with them the next. Dexter is a serial killer, and although he "only kills bad people" he isn't doing this out of some selfless mission, it's because it's the only way to channel his seriously mentally fucked up psyche. You are still expected to route for him though, even though if Dexter was a real life person you'd much more likely have the reaction of "yeah dude... seriously, that's not cool."

Unconventional protagonists abound in today's art mediums. And mad men and breaking bad are no different.

However, I do think there is a slight difference between the last two I just mentioned.

With breaking bad, walt whitman did not start off as a "bad character." The whole very premise of that show is that we were starting from a place of GOOD, and that he would slowly evolve (devolve?) into something else entirely. At the begining of the series, walt is a very sympathetic character, dying from cancer, and is purely looking for a way to make sure his family is taken care of when he is gone. He has a normal job, a normal life, and a normal family.

In contrast, Don Draper was always meant to be an asshole. The very first episode of mad men (which you haven't seen ;) ) has don draper talking to some arty hippie girl, and you just are led to believe that Don has this cool suave city life with hookups all around the city, only to be shellshocked by the ending of him driving out to the burbs and being introduced to his wife and family as an afterthought. The very first episode you were presented with one image of don only to have it flipped on it's head by the ending.

So while yes, both those shows have unconventional protagonists, I think the starting point for both of them is a very different place. And that makes the shows very different in that regard.

this is probably the longest post I have typed on JPP in 3+ months
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Very interesting take, on everything. Regarding the idea of rooting for the bad guys, I would guess that goes back awhile. Most people probably wanted Michael Corleone to get away after he shot the police captain, but then, the police captain wasn't a "good" character either. I remember pulling for Bonnie & Clyde, as well. It's a weird thing.

The only thing I'd argue is that Walter White wasn't entirely "good", even in the beginning. They did a flashback where he was buying his 1st home, and telling his wife to "think big" - it was clear he was an opportunist, and they really laid the groundwork for him being an ends-justify-means kind of guy. And it wasn't too long before he was doing some pretty bad stuff, but I'd wager most of the audience was pulling for him even after he committed his first murder, et al.

But I know what you're saying about the comparison. Even though I missed the first few seasons, I think Don has always likely been a jerk, and pretty openly.
 
darla I have become lazy with this thread, I think the problem is a lot of us are so smart so we don't really need to spell things out for each other. I'll post more on it later I suppose, but man that finale rocked. A+
 
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