Trump Lied

PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



You are correct in identifying a big problem in the USA. Low wage workers are unable to afford health insurance. Health care coverage has become a luxury only available to the richer classes. This is not a failure of socialism. This is a failure of capitalism. The health care industry has become more focused on profit-taking than on care-providing. The health care industry has become more about increasing profits than about providing health care where it is needed.

Capitalism caused this problem. Capitalism has no solution to this problem. The ACA was created to address this problem because capitalism couldn't do it.

The real lesson is that the capitalist profit-seeking approach is wrong for making health care available to everyone. The only way to provide health care to everyone is for it to be a socialized system.

Trump dangled a false promise in front of voters when he said “I am going to take care of everybody."

It sounded too good to be true. It was suspect from the start because there were no details. Trump had no plan, just empty words. But he correctly identified what the nation wants. The nation wants everybody to to be taken care of when it comes to health care.

Before the ACA rates were lower (they were still unaffordable to many) because people with pre-existing conditions were simply refused coverage. Insurance companies did not pay for their treatment, so they often simply died for lack of enough money to pay for care. Many Americans knew or were related to people caught in this capitalist nightmare, and were adamant that had to be fixed.

The ACA forced insurers to offer coverage to everybody. It also sought to provide financial assistance to those who still could not afford coverage. Understandably, this caused an increase in rates for others.

Republicans looked for any way to destroy Obamacare and make it fail. They found it by challenging the crucial part of it which required everyone to buy in. Without that part of the law the rates have risen and will continue to rise. This leads to a system which is not much better than before the law. Health care is still prohibitively expensive, and the powerful executives of big insurance and big pharma are still getting fabulously rich at the expense of everyday working Americans and tax payers.

This leads us right back to the premise that capitalism is simply not right for health care.

Health care needs to be a basic right, guaranteed by our country, and provided by government. Everyone should be taxed to pay for it, according to their ability to pay. By removing the big profit-takers from the equation, the cost will be as low as possible. Since health care will no longer be tied to work, more entrepreneurship will flourish. Without the need to provide health insurance to workers, small businesses will be freed up to become more competitive, especially with foreign companies which are not burdened with health care costs.

When everyone has health coverage, there will be fewer sick people, and a healthier more productive nation.

Sometimes the socialist approach is better and more appropriate than the capitalist one. Certainly on a national scale this is true.

Several candidates are promoting a Public Option for health coverage. This is the ultimate test of doing something for profit or seeing if government can do it better. If the profit motive leads to so much more efficiency that the profits can be paid for by the payers, and it still comes out cheaper, then they should have nothing to fear from a government-provided plan which will not be burdened by the need to turn a profit, and instead can operate at cost. But instead of putting their money where their mouth is, conservatives fear the Public Option, for obvious reasons.

It only stands to reason that two essentially identical systems, where one has to add in the cost of profit-taking, and the other does not, will show that the non-profit system is more affordable to the user.

That is what scares the capitalists, and why they fight so strongly against the Public Option. But if what they say is true, that the profit-motive leads to a much more efficient system, then they should be willing to let it stand the ultimate test. If they are unwilling, then it shows they do not believe their own words.
Click to expand...

Tell that to Australia. Its failing there.
I identified the only problem.
Government moving into healthcare drove costs into this spiral abetted by malpractice issues.
Government is not the answer.
 
Hello Celticguy,

Celticguy said:
Tell that to Australia. Its failing there.
I identified the only problem.
Government moving into healthcare drove costs into this spiral abetted by malpractice issues.
Government is not the answer.
Click to expand...

You seriously think if we leave health care to Wall Street and the executives of big insurance and big pharma that it will cost less?

Pardon me but ....

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha HAAAAAAA!
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



You seriously think if we leave health care to Wall Street and the executives of big insurance and big pharma that it will cost less?

Pardon me but ....

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha HAAAAAAA!
Click to expand...

We know that it would be the case because it was the case.
Just as we know that songle payer will not make the improvements it's supporters claim (see Australia).
 
Celticguy said:
We know that it would be the case because it was the case.
Just as we know that songle payer will not make the improvements it's supporters claim (see Australia).
Click to expand...

Wow. You're serious.

Sorry I laughed.

OK, you believe health care would be affordable to all if government simply stepped completely out of it and allowed the free market to do it's own thing?

Is that what you believe?

When was the last time there was no government involvement in health care?

The 1960's?

The only medical imaging then was X-rays.

That was before CAT Scan machines and MRI.

How can somebody on minimum wage pay for an MRI?

Effective minimum wage has been reduced since then, and even at the inflation-adjusted 1968 min wage (about $10) it would still not be possible for a min wage worker to afford health care in the free market.

We either tell those people: "Tough luck. Too bad. You die. You don't make enough money for us to save you," or we have to tax the rich to pay for it.

No other option.

Are you indifferent to their plight?

Why do you care about the rights of the rich to keep all their wealth more than you care about the rights of the poor to have life itself?

That's messed up.
 
PoliTalker said:
Wow. You're serious.

Sorry I laughed.

OK, you believe health care would be affordable to all if government simply stepped completely out of it and allowed the free market to do it's own thing?

Is that what you believe?

When was the last time there was no government involvement in health care?

The 1960's?

The only medical imaging then was X-rays.

That was before CAT Scan machines and MRI.

How can somebody on minimum wage pay for an MRI?

Effective minimum wage has been reduced since then, and even at the inflation-adjusted 1968 min wage (about $10) it would still not be possible for a min wage worker to afford health care in the free market.

We either tell those people: "Tough luck. Too bad. You die. You don't make enough money for us to save you," or we have to tax the rich to pay for it.

No other option.

Are you indifferent to their plight?

Why do you care about the rights of the rich to keep all their wealth more than you care about the rights of the poor to have life itself?

That's messed up.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough there were poor people back then as well. But there were no ox carts plowing the streets picking up the dead. The poor received care only without the govt oaying for it.
Cat scanners and MRI hape been around since 77, dontcha suppose they have become more affordable in the last 43 years ? Everything else has. The reason they have not is because of government's bottomless pockets.
I came across the bill my dad paid for me being born into this world. A week in hospital for mom and I. It came to roughly the same as the co-pay for my Daughter coming into the world. One day in hospital for mom and her.
Of course inflation has a hand in that but we know that medical inflation far outstrips overall inflation.
You need to open your mind a bit. What you believe really does not match with the facts at hand.
 
PoliTalker said:
Wow. You're serious.

Sorry I laughed.

OK, you believe health care would be affordable to all if government simply stepped completely out of it and allowed the free market to do it's own thing?

Is that what you believe?

When was the last time there was no government involvement in health care?

The 1960's?

The only medical imaging then was X-rays.

That was before CAT Scan machines and MRI.

How can somebody on minimum wage pay for an MRI?

Effective minimum wage has been reduced since then, and even at the inflation-adjusted 1968 min wage (about $10) it would still not be possible for a min wage worker to afford health care in the free market.

We either tell those people: "Tough luck. Too bad. You die. You don't make enough money for us to save you," or we have to tax the rich to pay for it.

No other option.

Are you indifferent to their plight?

Why do you care about the rights of the rich to keep all their wealth more than you care about the rights of the poor to have life itself?

That's messed up.
Click to expand...

Obamacare TRIPLED my healthcare costs !! Die Obama die !
 
Hello Celticguy,

Celticguy said:
Oddly enough there were poor people back then as well. But there were no ox carts plowing the streets picking up the dead. The poor received care only without the govt oaying for it.
Cat scanners and MRI hape been around since 77, dontcha suppose they have become more affordable in the last 43 years ? Everything else has. The reason they have not is because of government's bottomless pockets.
I came across the bill my dad paid for me being born into this world. A week in hospital for mom and I. It came to roughly the same as the co-pay for my Daughter coming into the world. One day in hospital for mom and her.
Of course inflation has a hand in that but we know that medical inflation far outstrips overall inflation.
You need to open your mind a bit. What you believe really does not match with the facts at hand.
Click to expand...

Health care has gotten more expensive. I agree with that part.

You have failed to show that government involvement is the reason.

You want to treat this as a fact, but I do not accept your facts.

I consider them to be unsubstantiated claims.

I also do not see how somebody on a low income could afford modern health care even if it was left completely up to the capitalist market.

Here is what the capitalists would do without government oversight.

First of all, forget getting the price you currently pay for having a birth.

Birthing is not one of the most lucrative areas of health care.

Capitalists would look at that and say gee. Angioplasties have a higher profit margin. Let's just get rid of the birth center all together. We will expand only the most lucrative services and get rid of all the ones that don't turn the biggest profit. Screw the needs of the community. We are out to make money. Let's just focus on the services that make the most money. Oh, and forget operating an ER that serves anybody who walks in. We will only take those who have been pre-verified to have lots of money or insurance. Let's make this hospital a real profit-producer!
 
Celticguy said:
There is no fixing the flaws. The entire design is shite.
Click to expand...

Heathcare and Heathcare insurance are viewed differently between political parties.

Democrats are trying to turm Heathcare and Healthcare insurance into a commodity, and Republicans are trying to keep it as PRIVATE STOCK! [Adolf Twitler]
 
Adolf_Twitler said:
Heathcare and Heathcare insurance are viewed differently between political parties.

Democrats are trying to turm Heathcare and Healthcare insurance into a commodity, and Republicans are trying to keep it as PRIVATE STOCK! [Adolf Twitler]
Click to expand...

Republicans are trying to save Health insurance companies enormous profits.At the expense of
American citizens health.
 
Celticguy said:
They were all published and even noted on these forums.
If you are unaware of them perhaps your sources for current events is lacking.
Click to expand...

Totally untrue. But a righty like you must have all those great plans handy. I have never seen them. Your response is just admitting there is none and you want to run away.
 
Adolf_Twitler said:
Heathcare and Heathcare insurance are viewed differently between political parties.

Democrats are trying to turm Heathcare and Healthcare insurance into a commodity, and Republicans are trying to keep it as PRIVATE STOCK! [Adolf Twitler]
Click to expand...

Dems are turning it into a right and taking the huge profits out of it. The right sees it as a commodity they can control and make huge money off.
 
Capitalism is a wonderful tool of creativity in the spirit of competition of the free market.

There is no free market in health care.

That's why capitalism is wrong for health care.

Health care must be a socialist program and a basic guaranteed right, just like retirement.
 
PoliTalker said:
"“We’re going to have insurance for everybody,” Trump said in press conference Jan. 11. “We’re going to have a healthcare that is far less expensive and far better.”

Or, as he said in a September 2015 “60 Minutes” interview, “I am going to take care of everybody. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.”"


The Hill

Instead, he could not get Republicans to create a better plan, and worse, they have acted to kill Obamacare by killing the individual mandate.
Click to expand...


Trump lied? I guess we will just have to putit with the other 10,000 or so others he has uttered.
 
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