Universal Healthcare

Obviously you are very attached to your error. Why don't you ASK your doctor or a hospital administrator. Even practices that are largely Medicare are not owned or employed by the government.

How about we just ask them WHO controls the production and distribution of their vocation?

Besides that .. the patient doesn't order tests or procedures, medicine or surgery from a menu.. He's NOT the customer.

Libertarians are always so fuzxy.

It's kinda like going to a French restaurant, we leave the menu up to the professional with the towel over his arm with the options and recommendations, huh? If we buy our own healthcare we ARE the customer I don't want the government to be the expert with the towel and menu, that's what got us to the shitty position we're in now. Again, I'll ask you which would you rather have single payer healthcare or America's World Police Force keeping the alleged "free world" free? If you like both, present the options for affording both. Europe has already made that choice because America is their military guarantee that they can afford single payer.
 
How about we just ask them WHO controls the production and distribution of their vocation?



It's kinda like going to a French restaurant, we leave the menu up to the professional with the towel over his arm with the options and recommendations, huh? If we buy our own healthcare we ARE the customer I don't want the government to be the expert with the towel and menu, that's what got us to the shitty position we're in now. Again, I'll ask you which would you rather have single payer healthcare or America's World Police Force keeping the alleged "free world" free? If you like both, present the options for affording both. Europe has already made that choice because America is their military guarantee that they can afford single payer.



In the hospital the patient is NOT the customer.. The doctor is the customer.. .. unless you plan to take out your own appendix and proscribe your own drugs..

Its not a matter of either healthcare or the military.. That's a real rightwing BS argument.

The VA has always been an expensive mess. Sell off all VA facilities to private concerns and go to single payer.
 
In the hospital the patient is NOT the customer.. The doctor is the customer.. .. unless you plan to take out your own appendix and proscribe your own drugs.

That's funny, I don't care who ya are! Actually if I'm in the hospital I am the "customer" buying a procedure. The doctor is the employee, and the government is the employer, because the government owns and operates Medicare and even rules over my private insurance plan.

Its not a matter of either healthcare or the military.. That's a real rightwing BS argument.

Then you're saying America can afford both, right? If that's your position, please explain in detail how, I'll wait!

The VA has always been an expensive mess. Sell off all VA facilities to private concerns and go to single payer.

DUH! The VA is single payer friend, why not just put everybody into the VA, that's the same as putting the VA into Medicaid and everybody else too. Figure out the cost of that either way and add it to what we spend on the Pentagon and our World Police Force and Military Industrial Complex, then get back to me. I'll wait!
 
That's funny, I don't care who ya are! Actually if I'm in the hospital I am the "customer" buying a procedure. The doctor is the employee, and the government is the employer, because the government owns and operates Medicare and even rules over my private insurance plan.



Then you're saying America can afford both, right? If that's your position, please explain in detail how, I'll wait!



DUH! The VA is single payer friend, why not just put everybody into the VA, that's the same as putting the VA into Medicaid and everybody else too. Figure out the cost of that either way and add it to what we spend on the Pentagon and our World Police Force and Military Industrial Complex, then get back to me. I'll wait!

Were you an executive in the hospital business? You sure as hell don't know anything about the business if you think you are the customer. Doctors are NOT employed by the Hospital unless it is a VA hospital.

The VA is owned outright by the government.. They own the buildings, equipment.. They employ all the doctors, nurses and staff.. VA is very poor healthcare that is far more expensive than Medicare.
 
Were you an executive in the hospital business? You sure as hell don't know anything about the business if you think you are the customer. Doctors are NOT employed by the Hospital unless it is a VA hospital.

The VA is owned outright by the government.. They own the buildings, equipment.. They employ all the doctors, nurses and staff.. VA is very poor healthcare that is far more expensive than Medicare.

VA is excellent healthcare. All the Vets I know love it. They have salaried doctors so they do not get paid by the procedure and they can take time with the patients. They are not upselling to increase profits.
 
VA is excellent healthcare. All the Vets I know love it. They have salaried doctors so they do not get paid by the procedure and they can take time with the patients. They are not upselling to increase profits.

One does not see them fleeing the VA into the arms of Corporationcare do we.
 
VA is excellent healthcare. All the Vets I know love it. They have salaried doctors so they do not get paid by the procedure and they can take time with the patients. They are not upselling to increase profits.

Some VA hospitals are better than others.. Too many of the docs are miserable and hate it. I had 4-5 VA docs calling me every week looking to leave and wanting me to find a place for them in the private sector. Its also the MOST expensive healthcare in America.
 
In the hospital the patient is NOT the customer.. The doctor is the customer.. .. unless you plan to take out your own appendix and proscribe your own drugs..

Its not a matter of either healthcare or the military.. That's a real rightwing BS argument.

The VA has always been an expensive mess. Sell off all VA facilities to private concerns and go to single payer.
Single payer is the current fight. End the war machine, single payer, deal with the environment/climate.

Failure to deal with the latter will make everything else irrelevant, and you will see the reality within anyone in their 30's-40's lifetime.
 
Some VA hospitals are better than others.. Too many of the docs are miserable and hate it. I had 4-5 VA docs calling me every week looking to leave and wanting me to find a place for them in the private sector. Its also the MOST expensive healthcare in America.

If we had universal healthcare we would not need the VA. That money would go to universal. Yeah, taking time to treat patients like people is more expensive but I doubt more than emergency care. Of course, the VA has many serious injuries to deal with. Prosthetics and serious body harm is tougher than treating the flu.
 
If we had universal healthcare we would not need the VA. That money would go to universal. Yeah, taking time to treat patients like people is more expensive but I doubt more than emergency care. Of course, the VA has many serious injuries to deal with. Prosthetics and serious body harm is tougher than treating the flu.

True.. we wouldn't need to VA. For profit and not for profit hospitals also treat serious injuries ....
 
How about we just ask them WHO controls the production and distribution of their vocation?



It's kinda like going to a French restaurant, we leave the menu up to the professional with the towel over his arm with the options and recommendations, huh? If we buy our own healthcare we ARE the customer I don't want the government to be the expert with the towel and menu, that's what got us to the shitty position we're in now. Again, I'll ask you which would you rather have single payer healthcare or America's World Police Force keeping the alleged "free world" free? If you like both, present the options for affording both. Europe has already made that choice because America is their military guarantee that they can afford single payer.

What French dishes do you like?

Sounds like if america was not attempting to militarily occupy the planet and conduct 7 hot "generational" shooting wars in majority muslim countries we could invest in our own society like sane counties do. So you're telling us that no other nation has over 800 (we're not allowed to know the real number, estimates are over 800 to over 100) military bases/installations in over at least 80 nations? Why yes, that might well indeed have something to do with our "leaders" pushing austerity for "the people" who subsidize the empire and its shot callers.

You are not free, never have been, and healthcare is a prime example, you're a slave to access to it and the power structure is reticent to relinquish that hold on the working class and poor.

Bring your fucking military into a defensive posture and yes, you too may get a more reasoned and reasonable society, as Eisenhower warned us of long ago.
 
Hi, shitbags. Just thought you'd enjoy this steaming pile of Socialism. ;)

No one enjoys your steaming pile of Bullshit!

But, it is entertaining watching you fail!

gunfail.gif
 
Yeah, a massive raise in his taxes and complete shit coverage!

You already pay more for shitty outcomes and shorter life spans hon, you really do not know this?

New York, N.Y., October 8, 2015 — The U.S. spent more per person on health care than 12 other high-income nations in 2013, while seeing the lowest life expectancy and some of the worst health outcomes among this group, according to a Commonwealth Fund report out today. The analysis shows that in the U.S., which spent an average of $9,086 per person annually, life expectancy was 78.8 years. Switzerland, the second-highest-spending country, spent $6,325 per person and had a life expectancy of 82.9 years. Mortality rates for cancer were among the lowest in the U.S., but rates of chronic conditions, obesity, and infant mortality were higher than those abroad.

“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...spends-more-on-health-care-than-other-nations

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmun...-compared-to-10-other-countries/#486bbd6f576f

Major Findings
Quality: The indicators of quality were grouped into four categories: effective care, safe care, coordinated care, and patient-centered care. Compared with the other 10 countries, the U.S. fares best on provision and receipt of preventive and patient-centered care
Access: Not surprisingly—given the absence of universal coverage—people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries. Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost. Patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services; however, they are less likely to report rapid access to primary care than people in leading countries in the study. In other countries, like Canada, patients have little to no financial burden, but experience wait times for such specialized services. There is a frequent misperception that trade-offs between universal coverage and timely access to specialized services are inevitable; however, the Netherlands, U.K., and Germany provide universal coverage with low out-of-pocket costs while maintaining quick access to specialty services.
. While there has been some improvement in recent years, lower scores on safe and coordinated care pull the overall U.S. quality score down. Continued adoption of health information technology should enhance the ability of U.S. physicians to identify, monitor, and coordinate care for their patients, particularly those with chronic conditions.
Efficiency: On indicators of efficiency, the U.S. ranks last among the 11 countries, with the U.K. and Sweden ranking first and second, respectively. The U.S. has poor performance on measures of national health expenditures and administrative costs as well as on measures of administrative hassles, avoidable emergency room use, and duplicative medical testing. Sicker survey respondents in the U.K. and France are less likely to visit the emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor, had one been available.
Equity: The US ranks a clear last on measures of equity. Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick; not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care; or not filling a prescription or skipping doses when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, one-third or more lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year.
Healthy lives: The U.S. ranks last overall with poor scores on all three indicators of healthy lives—mortality amenable to medical care, infant mortality, and healthy life expectancy at age 60. The U.S. and U.K. had much higher death rates in 2007 from conditions amenable to medical care than some of the other countries, e.g., rates 25 percent to 50 percent higher than Australia and Sweden. Overall, France, Sweden, and Switzerland rank highest on healthy lives.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

No other advanced country even comes close to the United States in annual spending on health care, but plenty of those other countries see much better outcomes in their citizens' actual health overall.
A new Commonwealth Fund report released Thursday underscored that point — yet again — with an analysis that ranks 13 high-income nations on their overall health spending, use of medical services, prices and health outcomes.

The study data, which is from 2013, predates the full implementation of Obamacare, which took place in 2014. Obamacare is designed to increase health coverage for Americans and stem the rise in health-care costs.
The findings indicate that despite spending well in excess of the rate of any other of those countries in 2013, the United States achieved worse outcomes when it comes to rates of chronic conditions, obesity and infant mortality.

One rare bright spot for the U.S., however, is that its mortality rate for cancer is among the lowest out of the 13 countries, and that cancer rates fell faster between 1995 and 2007 than in other countries.
"Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits," said Dr. David Blumenthal, president of the Commonwealth Fund. "We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health-care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity."
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/08/us-health-care-spending-is-high-results-arenot-so-good.html

Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064#t=article

Health Care Outcomes in States Influenced by Coverage, Disparities
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-in-states-influenced-by-coverage-disparities

One explanation for the health disadvantage of the United States relative to other high-income countries might be deficiencies in health services. Although the United States is renowned for its leadership in biomedical research, its cutting-edge medical technology, and its hospitals and specialists, problems with ensuring Americans’ access to the system and providing quality care have been a long-standing concern of policy makers and the public (Berwick et al., 2008; Brook, 2011b; Fineberg, 2012). Higher mortality rates from diseases, and even from transportation-related injuries and homicides, may be traceable in part to failings in the health care system.
The United States stands out from many other countries in not offering universal health insurance coverage. In 2010, 50 million people (16 percent of the U.S. population) were uninsured (DeNavas-Walt et al., 2011). Access to health care services, particularly in rural and frontier communities or disadvantaged urban centers, is often limited. The United States has a relatively weak foundation for primary care and a shortage of family physicians (American Academy of Family Physicians, 2009; Grumbach et al., 2009; Macinko et al., 2007; Sandy et al., 2009). Many Americans rely on emergency departments for acute, chronic, and even preventive care (Institute of Medicine, 2007a; Schoen et al., 2009b, 2011). Cost sharing is common in the United States, and high out-of-pocket expenses make health care services, pharmaceuticals, and medical supplies increasingly unaffordable (Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance System, 2011; Karaca-Mandic et al., 2012). In 2011, one-third of American households reported problems paying medical bills (Cohen et al., 2012), a problem that seems to have worsened in recent years (Himmelstein et al., 2009). Health insurance premiums are consuming an increasing proportion of U.S. household income (Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance System, 2011).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154484/

Once again, U.S. has most expensive, least effective health care system in survey
A report released Monday by a respected think tank ranks the United States dead last in the quality of its health-care system when compared with 10 other western, industrialized nations, the same spot it occupied in four previous studies by the same organization. Not only did the U.S. fail to move up between 2004 and 2014 -- as other nations did with concerted effort and significant reforms -- it also has maintained this dubious distinction while spending far more per capita ($8,508) on health care than Norway ($5,669), which has the second most expensive system.
"Although the U.S. spends more on health care than any other country and has the highest proportion of specialist physicians, survey findings indicate that from the patients’ perspective, and based on outcome indicators, the performance of American health care is severely lacking," the Commonwealth Fund, a New York-based foundation that promotes improved health care, concluded in its extensive analysis. The charts in this post are from the report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...care-system-in-survey/?utm_term=.3bea55276072

US healthcare system ranks 50th out of 55 countries for efficiency
http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-50th-out-of-55-countries-for-efficiency.html

The U.S. healthcare system notched another dubious honor in a new comparison of its quality to the systems of 10 other developed countries: its rank was dead last.
The new study by the Commonwealth Fund ranks the U.S. against seven wealthy European countries and Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It's a follow-up of previous surveys published in 2010, 2007, 2006 and 2004, in all of which the U.S. also ranked last.
Although the U.S. ranked in the middle of the pack on measures of effectiveness, safety and coordination of care, it ranked dead last on access and cost, by a sufficient margin to rank dead last overall. The breakdowns are in the chart above.

Conservative pundits hastened to explain away these results after the report was published. See Aaron Carroll for a gloss on the "zombie arguments" put forth against the clear evidence that the U.S. system falls short.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-us-healthcare-system-20140617-column.html

U.S. Health Care Ranked Worst in the Developed World
http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/
 
Last edited:
You already pay more for shitty outcomes and shorter life spans hon, you really do not know this?

New York, N.Y., October 8, 2015 — The U.S. spent more per person on health care than 12 other high-income nations in 2013, while seeing the lowest life expectancy and some of the worst health outcomes among this group, according to a Commonwealth Fund report out today. The analysis shows that in the U.S., which spent an average of $9,086 per person annually, life expectancy was 78.8 years. Switzerland, the second-highest-spending country, spent $6,325 per person and had a life expectancy of 82.9 years. Mortality rates for cancer were among the lowest in the U.S., but rates of chronic conditions, obesity, and infant mortality were higher than those abroad.

“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...spends-more-on-health-care-than-other-nations

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmun...-compared-to-10-other-countries/#486bbd6f576f

Major Findings
Quality: The indicators of quality were grouped into four categories: effective care, safe care, coordinated care, and patient-centered care. Compared with the other 10 countries, the U.S. fares best on provision and receipt of preventive and patient-centered care
Access: Not surprisingly—given the absence of universal coverage—people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries. Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost. Patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services; however, they are less likely to report rapid access to primary care than people in leading countries in the study. In other countries, like Canada, patients have little to no financial burden, but experience wait times for such specialized services. There is a frequent misperception that trade-offs between universal coverage and timely access to specialized services are inevitable; however, the Netherlands, U.K., and Germany provide universal coverage with low out-of-pocket costs while maintaining quick access to specialty services.
. While there has been some improvement in recent years, lower scores on safe and coordinated care pull the overall U.S. quality score down. Continued adoption of health information technology should enhance the ability of U.S. physicians to identify, monitor, and coordinate care for their patients, particularly those with chronic conditions.
Efficiency: On indicators of efficiency, the U.S. ranks last among the 11 countries, with the U.K. and Sweden ranking first and second, respectively. The U.S. has poor performance on measures of national health expenditures and administrative costs as well as on measures of administrative hassles, avoidable emergency room use, and duplicative medical testing. Sicker survey respondents in the U.K. and France are less likely to visit the emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor, had one been available.
Equity: The US ranks a clear last on measures of equity. Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick; not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care; or not filling a prescription or skipping doses when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, one-third or more lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year.
Healthy lives: The U.S. ranks last overall with poor scores on all three indicators of healthy lives—mortality amenable to medical care, infant mortality, and healthy life expectancy at age 60. The U.S. and U.K. had much higher death rates in 2007 from conditions amenable to medical care than some of the other countries, e.g., rates 25 percent to 50 percent higher than Australia and Sweden. Overall, France, Sweden, and Switzerland rank highest on healthy lives.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

No other advanced country even comes close to the United States in annual spending on health care, but plenty of those other countries see much better outcomes in their citizens' actual health overall.
A new Commonwealth Fund report released Thursday underscored that point — yet again — with an analysis that ranks 13 high-income nations on their overall health spending, use of medical services, prices and health outcomes.

The study data, which is from 2013, predates the full implementation of Obamacare, which took place in 2014. Obamacare is designed to increase health coverage for Americans and stem the rise in health-care costs.
The findings indicate that despite spending well in excess of the rate of any other of those countries in 2013, the United States achieved worse outcomes when it comes to rates of chronic conditions, obesity and infant mortality.

One rare bright spot for the U.S., however, is that its mortality rate for cancer is among the lowest out of the 13 countries, and that cancer rates fell faster between 1995 and 2007 than in other countries.
"Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits," said Dr. David Blumenthal, president of the Commonwealth Fund. "We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health-care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity."
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/08/us-health-care-spending-is-high-results-arenot-so-good.html

Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064#t=article

Health Care Outcomes in States Influenced by Coverage, Disparities
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-in-states-influenced-by-coverage-disparities

One explanation for the health disadvantage of the United States relative to other high-income countries might be deficiencies in health services. Although the United States is renowned for its leadership in biomedical research, its cutting-edge medical technology, and its hospitals and specialists, problems with ensuring Americans’ access to the system and providing quality care have been a long-standing concern of policy makers and the public (Berwick et al., 2008; Brook, 2011b; Fineberg, 2012). Higher mortality rates from diseases, and even from transportation-related injuries and homicides, may be traceable in part to failings in the health care system.
The United States stands out from many other countries in not offering universal health insurance coverage. In 2010, 50 million people (16 percent of the U.S. population) were uninsured (DeNavas-Walt et al., 2011). Access to health care services, particularly in rural and frontier communities or disadvantaged urban centers, is often limited. The United States has a relatively weak foundation for primary care and a shortage of family physicians (American Academy of Family Physicians, 2009; Grumbach et al., 2009; Macinko et al., 2007; Sandy et al., 2009). Many Americans rely on emergency departments for acute, chronic, and even preventive care (Institute of Medicine, 2007a; Schoen et al., 2009b, 2011). Cost sharing is common in the United States, and high out-of-pocket expenses make health care services, pharmaceuticals, and medical supplies increasingly unaffordable (Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance System, 2011; Karaca-Mandic et al., 2012). In 2011, one-third of American households reported problems paying medical bills (Cohen et al., 2012), a problem that seems to have worsened in recent years (Himmelstein et al., 2009). Health insurance premiums are consuming an increasing proportion of U.S. household income (Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance System, 2011).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154484/

Once again, U.S. has most expensive, least effective health care system in survey
A report released Monday by a respected think tank ranks the United States dead last in the quality of its health-care system when compared with 10 other western, industrialized nations, the same spot it occupied in four previous studies by the same organization. Not only did the U.S. fail to move up between 2004 and 2014 -- as other nations did with concerted effort and significant reforms -- it also has maintained this dubious distinction while spending far more per capita ($8,508) on health care than Norway ($5,669), which has the second most expensive system.
"Although the U.S. spends more on health care than any other country and has the highest proportion of specialist physicians, survey findings indicate that from the patients’ perspective, and based on outcome indicators, the performance of American health care is severely lacking," the Commonwealth Fund, a New York-based foundation that promotes improved health care, concluded in its extensive analysis. The charts in this post are from the report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...care-system-in-survey/?utm_term=.3bea55276072

US healthcare system ranks 50th out of 55 countries for efficiency
http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-50th-out-of-55-countries-for-efficiency.html

The U.S. healthcare system notched another dubious honor in a new comparison of its quality to the systems of 10 other developed countries: its rank was dead last.
The new study by the Commonwealth Fund ranks the U.S. against seven wealthy European countries and Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It's a follow-up of previous surveys published in 2010, 2007, 2006 and 2004, in all of which the U.S. also ranked last.
Although the U.S. ranked in the middle of the pack on measures of effectiveness, safety and coordination of care, it ranked dead last on access and cost, by a sufficient margin to rank dead last overall. The breakdowns are in the chart above.

Conservative pundits hastened to explain away these results after the report was published. See Aaron Carroll for a gloss on the "zombie arguments" put forth against the clear evidence that the U.S. system falls short.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-us-healthcare-system-20140617-column.html

U.S. Health Care Ranked Worst in the Developed World
http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/


This deserves its own thread..............
 
Our healthcare costs double and is much worse. Why so many want to keep it is just proof of how well propaganda works on us. It's American, what could be better? How about all the others. We get played by corporations and love it.
 
A canadian should know, and it is socialism! and that leads to communism, with a capital C, and that rhymes with P and that causes hair to grow on your palms.

Leave it alone Americans, you already have the very, very best in the whole, whole world!
 
Back
Top