US COVID-19 deaths by Election Day

Will US COVID-19 deaths exceed the 62,000 by Election Day?


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Hello Dutch Uncle,



I would expect to see a second peak where the openings have occurred. It is an interesting experiment with life and death in the balance. But the results will give us some insight. If it really has spread far and wide beyond what our limited testing indicates, the second wave will not be so bad. But if it hasn't, then it will be bad. Not a smart risk to take. I disagree with the early openings. Why gamble with lives?

If the results are not bad it means it already circulated farther and wider than known, and most showed little to no symptoms. But if not, then we'll sadly see lots more death.

Agreed on second peaks. It will eventually resemble an accordion until a cure or vaccine is found if we don't just suck it up and open everything...which is what I think will happen. The nation can't take an extended shut. No resources exist because our government spent them and then cut taxes.

Opening up only works if, once having the disease, a person is immune. If they're not or the COVID-19 evolves every year like flu, thus giving the Right their wish, then we'll be living in a Monty Python movie.

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Hello Concart,

I said to someone just a couple of months back that Elizabeth Warrens wealth tax would never be implemented. I think this may change that equation, and that's a good thing, so I think maybe even MORE than raising taxes on the rich. It makes sense. I guess that's the silver lining. I think this will cause everyone to rethink the growing wage/wealth gap.

I hope so. This is going to be so very costly to our government.
 
More people testing positive isn't indicative of more people being infected. It is just that we are testing more of them that are.

As we test more, we will be better able to spot trends. We will also have a better handle on the true mortality rate. As long as we don't overwhelm the hospitals, I think it will be in the 1-2% range. We may see "Covid check in" at public places. You have to agree to give contact information whenever you go to a restaurant or store so if someone becomes infected there is a way to trace contacts.

So? Are you denying that COVID-19 is a highly contagious disease with a 3%+ fatality rate? Are you denying that there is no cure or vaccine for this disease, unlike the flu where half the nation gets a flu shot and we still lose 30,000 to 60,000 people every year due to flu or flu complications?

Test all you want. Test everyone daily. What do you think should be done with the results?
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,

I really don't see that happening. I'm not saying it won't but we are seeing the number of new cases leveling off even with more testing. That likely means the number of new cases is actually dropping at this point. In 3 weeks we could be back down to 1000 deaths per day. There may be some spikes as other places become hot spots but if NY and NJ get their mortality down to half of what it is now followed by MA and MI we could finally be down to a bad flu death rate which can hit 4000 a week.

Mostly agreed, A couple of notes: This will be on top of the normal flu death rate. And this shows no signs of being affected by warm weather. Miami is quite warm and has a lot of cases. We had what looked like maybe a sort of a peak of sorts in new cases until yesterday and then had the biggest number of new cases yet in one day. DT is dreaming, of course, with all that talk of 'light at the end of the tunnel' garbage. If we are in a tunnel and seeing light it is probably a train about to run us over. I'm afraid this could go right on into summer. Those countries that are seeing drops in new cases are still shut down.
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,

More people testing positive isn't indicative of more people being infected. It is just that we are testing more of them that are.

We don't know that, and it doesn't have to be either / or. It is more likely a combination of both. It's not like it is going to stop spreading because we are testing more.

As we test more, we will be better able to spot trends. We will also have a better handle on the true mortality rate. As long as we don't overwhelm the hospitals, I think it will be in the 1-2% range. We may see "Covid check in" at public places. You have to agree to give contact information whenever you go to a restaurant or store so if someone becomes infected there is a way to trace contacts.

Interesting idea. Tracing, monitoring, testing are the tools. I won't be going to any restaurants until there is vax. And I am not alone.
 
So? Are you denying that COVID-19 is a highly contagious disease with a 3%+ fatality rate? Are you denying that there is no cure or vaccine for this disease, unlike the flu where half the nation gets a flu shot and we still lose 30,000 to 60,000 people every year due to flu or flu complications?

Test all you want. Test everyone daily. What do you think should be done with the results?
Covid-19 is highly contagious. We know that.

The 3% fatality rate is an unknown. If you look at all the countries, it varies from 0.7 to 15% CFR. (Case fatality rate) If you have only identified 20% of the actual infections your CFR is going to be artificially high. We are not going to know the true rate until we are able to do more testing. We probably won't know for a year what the true fatality rate is.

Testing does several things. It gives us a better understanding of the fatality rate. It helps us identify where the infection is actually spreading. It helps us with contact tracing. The simple fact is, we need more testing to stop this.
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,



Mostly agreed, A couple of notes: This will be on top of the normal flu death rate.
Yes. Flu season is now over so anyone that dies with flu symptoms probably has Covid19.

And this shows no signs of being affected by warm weather. Miami is quite warm and has a lot of cases.
Yes.

We had what looked like maybe a sort of a peak of sorts in new cases until yesterday and then had the biggest number of new cases yet in one day. DT is dreaming, of course, with all that talk of 'light at the end of the tunnel' garbage. If we are in a tunnel and seeing light it is probably a train about to run us over. I'm afraid this could go right on into summer. Those countries that are seeing drops in new cases are still shut down.
Everything is going to bounce from day to day. We need to watch trends over a few days. It will go into the summer. The only question is whether we can reduce the R0 to well below 1 to slow the spread.
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,



We don't know that, and it doesn't have to be either / or. It is more likely a combination of both. It's not like it is going to stop spreading because we are testing more.
I wasn't clear. I didn't mean it as an either/or. Just that we shouldn't assume it means more cases without more information to confirm.
 
Covid-19 is highly contagious. We know that.

The 3% fatality rate is an unknown. If you look at all the countries, it varies from 0.7 to 15% CFR. (Case fatality rate) If you have only identified 20% of the actual infections your CFR is going to be artificially high. We are not going to know the true rate until we are able to do more testing. We probably won't know for a year what the true fatality rate is.

Testing does several things. It gives us a better understanding of the fatality rate. It helps us identify where the infection is actually spreading. It helps us with contact tracing. The simple fact is, we need more testing to stop this.

So you don't accept the mortality rates given by WHO and the CDC?

Did you do the math on 0.7% times half of the USA population? Let me save you the effort: 1,480,000 dead Americans. That's being conservative.
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean it as an either/or. Just that we shouldn't assume it means more cases without more information to confirm.

It is not much of a stretch to make the assumption that it is spreading like wildfire. If we are just now learning about the extent through finally expanding testing, it just shows how behind the curve we are on testing. It is wishful thinking to assume it has run it's course and that the rising numbers are due to overdue testing after we wasted so much time on getting the testing up to speed.
 
So you don't accept the mortality rates given by WHO and the CDC?
I understand how estimated rates work. They are estimates and are based on what is currently known. They are taking known deaths and dividing it by known cases. Both the WHO and CDC have changed their rates as new information has come in. Both admit that the rate of infection is likely higher than reported. How much higher? We don't know. So they don't calculate it in their death rate. I am making an educated guess based on information that is available. The infection rate is higher than reported from testing. Social distancing is doing it's job and slowing down the spread.

I don't believe the preliminary testing that claims 2.7 million New Yorkers have been infected. The reason I don't accept it is because of the false positive possibility. A recent article on the effectiveness of the tests show they ranged from 1-2% false positives up to 35% false positives. I also don't believe that testing finds all the people that have been infected in the last week.


Did you do the math on 0.7% times half of the USA population? Let me save you the effort: 1,480,000 dead Americans. That's being conservative.
If it is unmitigated we will probably see 20 million dead. That is why we have stopped social gatherings and closed businesses. To try to prevent a huge disaster.


With social distancing, we are trying to eventually stop the spread, slow it down to the point where it can be eliminated or at least controlled.
 
Hello Poor Richard Saunders,



It is not much of a stretch to make the assumption that it is spreading like wildfire. If we are just now learning about the extent through finally expanding testing, it just shows how behind the curve we are on testing. It is wishful thinking to assume it has run it's course and that the rising numbers are due to overdue testing after we wasted so much time on getting the testing up to speed.
I would say it is a stretch to make that claim of spreading like wildfire. We have proxies that reflect the infection rate. The proxies are numbers hospitalized and number of deaths. Hospitalizations and deaths have not increased dramatically. That is a good sign and indicative of the spread being under at least a limited control.

If the infection rate is as high as some of studies are claiming then we would have a huge reduction in CFR which in and of itself would be a good sign. I don't trust those studies yet. I still think the final fatality rate is going to be in the 1-2% range which is plenty bad. This isn't the flu and it will have a lot more deaths than flu. Currently the death rate is about 3 -4 times worse than the worst flu and that is with major disruptions. It would be 10-100 times worse than the flu if we opened everything up.
 
I understand how estimated rates work. They are estimates and are based on what is currently known. They are taking known deaths and dividing it by known cases. Both the WHO and CDC have changed their rates as new information has come in. Both admit that the rate of infection is likely higher than reported. How much higher? We don't know. So they don't calculate it in their death rate. I am making an educated guess based on information that is available. The infection rate is higher than reported from testing. Social distancing is doing it's job and slowing down the spread.

I don't believe the preliminary testing that claims 2.7 million New Yorkers have been infected. The reason I don't accept it is because of the false positive possibility. A recent article on the effectiveness of the tests show they ranged from 1-2% false positives up to 35% false positives. I also don't believe that testing finds all the people that have been infected in the last week.

If it is unmitigated we will probably see 20 million dead. That is why we have stopped social gatherings and closed businesses. To try to prevent a huge disaster.

With social distancing, we are trying to eventually stop the spread, slow it down to the point where it can be eliminated or at least controlled.
Both WHO and the CDC are science-based, data-driven institutions. They report what they know so it figures that they'd update their estimates when better information arrives.

Yes, the current tests are flawed. This is a novel virus. The human race is fighting an uphill battle all the way.

Not sure about 20M dead Americans. 9M dead Americans is about 3% and that means everyone is infected.
 
The Spanish Flu came in 3 waves. The first was bad, the 2nd much worse accounting for nearly all the deaths. This opening up as quickly as possible makes sense to Trump's selection chances but not in terms of public health. We are taking a huge risk because those in power (Repubs) really don't care about the masses. Trump desperately needs to win to prevent investigations of his horrible one-sided theft of tax money for his family and the wealthy. He is not done boosting the plutocracy.
 
The Spanish Flu came in 3 waves. The first was bad, the 2nd much worse accounting for nearly all the deaths. This opening up as quickly as possible makes sense to Trump's selection chances but not in terms of public health. We are taking a huge risk because those in power (Repubs) really don't care about the masses. Trump desperately needs to win to prevent investigations of his horrible one-sided theft of tax money for his family and the wealthy. He is not done boosting the plutocracy.

Agreed that is likely to happen to us with COVID-19.

FWIW, the Democrats don't give a shit either. They're just as greedy about power and control as the Republicans. They just use different tools.
 
Oh yeah, that musty be right.

It is. Any party that seeks to ban things instead of expand more freedoms is authoritarian; controlling. Both parties have moved toward authoritarianism instead of protecting the rights and freedoms of American citizens.

In short, you and all the far left and far right people are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Agreed that is likely to happen to us with COVID-19.

FWIW, the Democrats don't give a shit either. They're just as greedy about power and control as the Republicans. They just use different tools.

As Barack Obama said, if you don't get elected you don't get the power to solve anything.

You have to grease the wheels that get you elected before you can solve any other problems.

It was actually pretty amazing that he got health reform with the deck so stacked against it.

I certainly didn't like the compromises which had to be made, but I have to admit we are better off with the law than without it.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,



As Barack Obama said, if you don't get elected you don't get the power to solve anything.

You have to grease the wheels that get you elected before you can solve any other problems.

It was actually pretty amazing that he got health reform with the deck so stacked against it.

I certainly didn't like the compromises which had to be made, but I have to admit we are better off with the law than without it.

None of which changes the observation that Democrats are just as authoritarian and greedy for power as the Republicans.

Obama's focus on healthcare over the economy in his first six months is seen by many as a mistake.

Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/obama-2008-financial-crisis.html
In 2009, Barack Obama was the most powerful newly elected American president in a generation. Democrats controlled the House and, for about five months in the second half of the year, they enjoyed a filibuster-proof, 60-vote majority in the Senate. For the first six months of his presidency, Obama had an approval rating in the 60s.

Democrats also had a once-in-a-lifetime political opportunity presented by a careening global crisis. Across the country, people were losing jobs and homes in numbers not seen since World War II. Just as in the 1930s, the Republican Party’s economic policies were widely thought to have caused the crisis, and Obama and his fellow Democrats were swept into office on a throw-the-bums-out wave.

If he’d been in the mood to press the case, Obama might have found widespread public appetite for the sort of aggressive, interventionist restructuring of the American economy that Franklin D. Roosevelt conjured with the New Deal. One of the inspiring new president’s advisers even hinted that was the plan.

“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste,” Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s chief of staff, said days after the 2008 election.

And then Obama took office. And rather than try for a Rooseveltian home run, he bunted: Instead of pushing for an aggressive stimulus to rapidly expand employment and long-term structural reforms in how the economy worked, Obama and his team responded to the recession with a set of smaller emergency measures designed to fix the immediate collapse of financial markets. They succeeded: The recession didn’t turn into a depression, markets were stabilized, and the United States began a period of long, slow growth.

But they could have done so much more. By the time Obama took office, job losses had accelerated so quickly that his advisers calculated the country would need $1.7 trillion in additional spending to get back to full employment. A handful of advisers favored a very large government stimulus of $1.2 trillion; some outside economists — Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, James Galbraith — also favored going to a trillion.

But Obama’s closest advisers declined to push Congress for anything more than $800 billion, which they projected would reduce unemployment to below 8 percent by the 2010 midterms. They were wrong; the stimulus did reduce job losses, but it was far too small to hit the stated goal — unemployment was 9.8 percent in November 2010.

Obama’s advisers also rejected ideas for large infrastructure projects. They offered a plan to prevent just 1.5 million foreclosures — when, ultimately, 10 million Americans lost their homes. And they declined to push for new leadership on Wall Street, let alone much punishment for the recklessness that led to the crisis.

“He chose an economic recovery plan that benefited educated, well-off people much more than the middle class,” writes Reed Hundt, a Democrat who is a former chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, in his recent history of Obama’s first two years, “A Crisis Wasted.”

A lot of this might be excusable; it was an emergency, and Obama and his team did what they could. But Obama’s longer record on the economy is also coming under fire from the left. The Obama people — many of whom came to the White House from Wall Street and left it for Silicon Valley — seemed entirely too comfortable with the ongoing corporatization of America.

In the Obama years, the government let corporations get bigger and economic power grow more concentrated. Obama’s regulators declined to push antimonopoly measures against Google and Facebook, against airlines and against big food and agriculture companies.

It is true that Obama succeeded in passing a groundbreaking universal health care law. It’s also true that over the course of his presidency, inequality grew, and Obama did little to stop it. While much of the rest of the country struggled to get by, the wealthy got wealthier and multimillionaires and billionaires achieved greater political and cultural power.

What’s the point of returning to this history now, a decade later? Think of it as a cautionary tale — a story that ought to rank at the top of mind for a Democratic electorate that is now choosing between Obama’s vice president and progressives like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, who had pushed Obama, during the recovery, to adopt policies with more egalitarian economic effects.

From this distance, the history favors Warren’s approach. As Hundt notes, not only did Obama’s policy ideas produce lackluster economic results (at least in that they failed to hit their stated goals), they failed politically, too. The sluggish recovery in Obama’s first years led to a huge loss for Democrats in the 2010 midterms. Obama was re-elected, but during his time in office, Democrats saw declining national support — and in 2016, of course, they lost the White House to Donald Trump, an outcome that Warren has tied directly to Obama’s early economic decisions.

Why had Obama chosen this elitist path? Another new book, “Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy,” by the antimonopoly scholar Matt Stoller, provides a deeply researched answer. It boils down to this: Obama, like Bill Clinton before him, was the product of a Democratic Party that had forgotten its history and legacy. For much of the 20th century, Democrats’ fundamental politics involved fighting against concentrations of economic power in favor of the rights and liberties of ordinary people. “The fight has always been about whether monopolists run our world, or about whether we the people do,” Stoller writes.

But in the 1970s, ’80s and ’90s, as Stoller explains, Democrats altered their economic vision. They abandoned New Deal and Great Society liberalism in favor of a new dogma that came to be known as neoliberalism — a view of society in which markets and financial instruments, rather than government policy and direct intervention, are seen as the best way to achieve social ends.

Obama’s biggest ideas were neoliberal: The Affordable Care Act, his greatest domestic policy achievement, improved access to health care by altering private health-insurance markets. Obama aimed to address the climate crisis by setting up a market for carbon, and his plan for improving education focused on technocratic, standards-based reform. Even Obama’s historical icons were neoliberal — the neoliberals’ patron saint being Alexander Hamilton, the elitist, banker-friendly founding father who would be transformed, in Obama’s neoliberal Camelot, into a beloved immigrant striver with very good flow.

It is tricky to criticize Obama from the left in the Trump era. There’s still widespread nostalgia and good feeling for Obama as a political figure — and, considering the disaster of the current administration, it feels almost churlish to re-examine his years in office. There are also a range of good defenses for Obama’s policies. “I have no doubt that when historians look back on the Obama years, he will and should be given credit for preventing a second Great Depression,” Christina Romer, one of the advisers who had pushed for much greater stimulus, told me.

Obama’s policies were also perfectly in line with prevailing orthodoxy — it’s likely that Hillary Clinton would have pursued similar measures if she’d won the 2008 primary. It is also worth noting that, ahem, parts of the punditocracy shared his market-fetishizing philosophy: I wrote skeptically of antitrust prosecution against Google in 2009, 2010, and 2015.

But that’s exactly why I found Stoller’s book so insightful. The long history of Democratic populism is unknown to most liberals today. Only now, in the age of Sanders and Warren and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, are we beginning to relearn the lessons of the past. For at least three decades, neoliberalism has brought the left economic half-measures and political despair. It’s time to demand more.
 
Both WHO and the CDC are science-based, data-driven institutions. They report what they know so it figures that they'd update their estimates when better information arrives.
Yes, they are science driven and they also put qualifiers on their estimates.
Here is a scientific article about how difficult it can be to calculate CFR - it is about the H1N1 pandemic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3809029/

A couple of news articles that might make an easier explanation
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/24/844562935/why-the-true-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-is-hard-to-estimate
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020...mating-the-death-rate-for-covid-19-heres-why/

Yes, the current tests are flawed. This is a novel virus. The human race is fighting an uphill battle all the way.
Novel only means it was new. It doesn't mean it is somehow different from how other viruses behave. Next year it will no longer be novel because we have seen it already.

Not sure about 20M dead Americans. 9M dead Americans is about 3% and that means everyone is infected.
But if you overwhelm the health care system you increase deaths because you can't save people you normally would. It would easily double or triple the deaths as people go untreated.


When WHO estimated 3.4% fatality, they were also estimating that only 1% of cases were asymptomatic.
https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/det...the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020

Evidence from China is that only 1% of reported cases do not have symptoms, and most of those cases develop symptoms within 2 days.
...

Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected.
 
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