We Have So Much To Be Thankful To China For

[Tacomaman]

Most excellent point..

I have seen it far to often..

I have a very good friend & mentor that was doing just that.. His dad was a union guy w/ the RR as well..

He was criticizing unions in general (& perhaps some is warranted) & more specifically teachers & state workers-the two state workers in the room bit their tongues but I, respectfully could not.. I had to point out not only his dad but that was a union worker & had now been retired more years than he worked for the Sheriffs dept in Sacramento..

Unions are far from perfect, but they sure as hell beat the alternatives.

That said, the union haters are the same folks that rail against social programs, then bitch when their unemployment check is late. In a nutshell, they are simply apathetic and ignorant individuals.

 

[/MSG/]

Nothing happened in Nanjing in 1939 but if it did they would deserve it.

Daily reminder that general Douglas MacArthur was right and we should have nuked Beijing in the 1950s.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Tacomaman,

Once again "Cwacko" displays his blatant hipocrisy by claiming others are purely bipartisan, while he fully supports unqualified Conservative judge appointments.
It would be some much easier if he were to simply admit his partisan hipocrisy instead of his frequent and unintended self admissions.

Did you mean to say 'partisan?'

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

Let me ask you this. How much have actually read or researched on people who support education reform? (even if you disagree with it) I don't mean reading things from politicians running for office but people like Jobs and others who discuss how our system could be reformed. And it's not that you necessarily have to agree with them but it makes you more informed when you understand where they are coming from.

And if we want to go back to the old days many of the best and brightest women went into teaching because they couldn't work elsewhere. When the times changed they left teaching for the private sector and different careers. Back in the day we had far less immigrants in our schools whose first language wasn't English. And our schools were segregated so not apples to oranges. The world was a different place 70 years ago. But our education system is stuck as if we're in 1950.

Is that when you think America 'was great?'

70 years ago?

Segregation, redlining, 90% top income tax rate, one income supports a middle class family, the commie scare, huge government infrastructure projects, conservatives arguing we no longer even need to pay for a US Navy because there are no more enemy navies to fight?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

Here's where I see things differently. It's not that the people on the ground aren't important, they are very important. But it's often visionaries that see change and that's what we need in education. An educator can explain how more money might be allocated yet still not reach the classroom, and that's important. But that isn't bringing about fundamental change which is what I'm talking about.

We can get into a whole discussion about how even with more funding it is poorly allocated and we spend too much on administrators and thus it doesn't reach the classroom etc. But how we educated our kids compared to other countries is about much more than that.

Most people agree there is way too much big money influence and government corruption.

Maybe we should make it a priority to get rid of government corruption.

Often times when we are talking about the failure of a government function where it serves the general public, we are talking about the results of government corruption.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Bill,

Ok, what is your radical foreign solution or help?? You know what they are going to tell you & why that won't work here..

When my middle daughter was in fourth grade her class (she is still very tight w/ many of them to this day) had a teacher-Ms Love (& yes, she was as pretty as her name implied)... SHe had taught 12 years in Taipei.......... This is a upper middle income area school-always in the top ten in the county..

We parents had to take turns sitting in the classroom every day as the sweet lady had zero idea how to control these good kids..

She quite after that year & no one was surprised when she announced it in the park @ the end of school party..

Our culture is one of defiance stemming from the way our country was formed.

Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it is a double edged sword. We have a lot of parents / kids who have the idea that freedom means disruptions and non conformance. Unfortunately, this seriously compromises education. Children and parents need to be made to understand the big picture of going to school - it is to learn. Every time the flow is interrupted it takes away valuable time before it is reestablished.

You know how it is when you are focused on something and your mind is clicking. Then there is some interruption or distraction. It takes a while to get your head back to where you were before the distraction. If at all.

 

[cawacko]

Ok, what is your radical foreign solution or help?? You know what they are going to tell you & why that won't work here..

When my middle daughter was in fourth grade her class (she is still very tight w/ many of them to this day) had a teacher-Ms Love (& yes, she was as pretty as her name implied)... SHe had taught 12 years in Taipei.......... This is a upper middle income area school-always in the top ten in the county..

We parents had to take turns sitting in the classroom every day as the sweet lady had zero idea how to control these good kids..

She quite after that year & no one was surprised when she announced it in the park @ the end of school party..

There are amazing teachers in this country and there are some amazing schools. My commentary is more about the system as a whole.

I'll throw out a couple of old Steve Jobs quotes that resonate with me. (I'm copying and pasting here of course)


Jobs Saw the Need for Disruption

Steve Jobs recognized this. He saw that true educational transformation requires disrupting the entire mass schooling model. As he did with his revolutionary Apple products, Jobs envisioned an education system that is innovative, experimental, and individualized for each learner. In a 1995 interview with the Smithsonian Institution, Jobs asserted his support for vouchers and entrepreneurial educators:

I believe very strongly that if the country gave each parent a voucher for forty-four hundred dollars that they could only spend at any accredited school several things would happen. Number one, schools would start marketing themselves like crazy to get students. Secondly, I think you'd see a lot of new schools starting…You could have twenty-five-year-old students out of college, very idealistic, full of energy instead of starting a Silicon Valley company, they'd start a school. I believe that they would do far better than any of our public schools would. The third thing you'd see is, I believe, is the quality of schools again, just in a competitive marketplace, start to rise. Some of the schools would go broke. A lot of the public schools would go broke. There's no question about it. It would be rather painful for the first several years…But far less painful I think than the kids going through the system as it is right now.

For Jobs, vouchers were only one piece of the education transformation puzzle. He realized that an incremental approach to reforming the existing mass schooling model does not work because of the power structures and bureaucratic tendencies inherent in conventional schooling. In the same Smithsonian interview, Jobs said:

I'd like the people teaching my kids to be good enough that they could get a job at the company I work for, making a hundred thousand dollars a year. Why should they work at a school for thirty-five to forty thousand dollars if they could get a job here at a hundred thousand dollars a year? Is that an intelligence test? The problem there, of course, is the unions. The unions are the worst thing that ever happened to education because it's not a meritocracy. It turns into a bureaucracy, which is exactly what has happened. The teachers can't teach and administrators run the place and nobody can be fired. It's terrible.



The chance of course of real change is slim to none. We've had the education model we've had for far too long and that makes it difficult to dramatically reform. Too much entrenched interests and it works well for people with money.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



Most people agree there is way too much big money influence and government corruption.

Maybe we should make it a priority to get rid of government corruption.

Often times when we are talking about the failure of a government function where it serves the general public, we are talking about the results of government corruption.

One way to reduce government corruption is to reduce the power government has. The bigger the agency, the more power it generally has. And people tend to not like to give up power.

Since we're talking education how many people who are a part of the education bureaucracy are willingly going to say "our organization has too much power and it's not having a positive impact we thought it would so we should work to reduce our funding and lesson our role?" It's not going to happen. People generally don't want to put themselves out of a job.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

One way to reduce government corruption is to reduce the power government has. The bigger the agency, the more power it generally has. And people tend to not like to give up power.

This is the exact wrong approach. And one which favors the ability of corrupt power junkies to have their way with government, and to use it against we the people. This allows the power of big money to have a proportionally LARGER power over government.

The best way to root out government corruption is to take measures to stop the influence of big money over government.

Since we're talking education how many people who are a part of the education bureaucracy are willingly going to say "our organization has too much power and it's not having a positive impact we thought it would so we should work to reduce our funding and lesson our role?" It's not going to happen. People generally don't want to put themselves out of a job.

These are the kinds of questions only those who refuse to identify the true source of government corruption would ask.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Hello cawacko,



This is the exact wrong approach. And one which favors the ability of corrupt power junkies to have their way with government, and to use it against we the people. This allows the power of big money to have a proportionally LARGER power over government.

The best way to root out government corruption is to take measures to stop the influence of big money over government.



These are the kinds of questions only those who refuse to identify the true source of government corruption would ask.

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

corporate power and government power both need to be reduced, to leave room for regular.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



This is the exact wrong approach. And one which favors the ability of corrupt power junkies to have their way with government, and to use it against we the people. This allows the power of big money to have a proportionally LARGER power over government.

The best way to root out government corruption is to take measures to stop the influence of big money over government.



These are the kinds of questions only those who refuse to identify the true source of government corruption would ask.

So no one would ever think to ask if what an organization is doing is worthwhile or achieving its goal?

 

[Bill]

Unions are far from perfect, but they sure as hell beat the alternatives.

That said, the union haters are the same folks that rail against social programs, then bitch when their unemployment check is late. In a nutshell, they are simply apathetic and ignorant individuals.

I was against unions as well back in the day, it has swung way to far in the other direction now, & as you pointed out, even haters benefited greatly from the sweat & blood unions for spelt for the great good of us all.....

 

[Bill]

Hello Bill,



Our culture is one of defiance stemming from the way our country was formed.

Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it is a double edged sword. We have a lot of parents / kids who have the idea that freedom means disruptions and non conformance. Unfortunately, this seriously compromises education. Children and parents need to be made to understand the big picture of going to school - it is to learn. Every time the flow is interrupted it takes away valuable time before it is reestablished.

You know how it is when you are focused on something and your mind is clicking. Then there is some interruption or distraction. It takes a while to get your head back to where you were before the distraction. If at all.

The fact that they have the right to be disruptive & the rest of the country is forced to accommodate them is the problem IMHO..

Most other countries are not so generous.. You start early fuckin up-not conforming & following rules & direction you're getting culled & set on another path away from the others..

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

politalker, freedom does mean disruption and nonconformance, especially in the face of tyranny, ya dumbfuck.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

politalker sounds like a chinese communist party member imbecile.

 

[Bill]

There are amazing teachers in this country and there are some amazing schools. My commentary is more about the system as a whole.

I'll throw out a couple of old Steve Jobs quotes that resonate with me. (I'm copying and pasting here of course)


Jobs Saw the Need for Disruption

Steve Jobs recognized this. He saw that true educational transformation requires disrupting the entire mass schooling model. As he did with his revolutionary Apple products, Jobs envisioned an education system that is innovative, experimental, and individualized for each learner. In a 1995 interview with the Smithsonian Institution, Jobs asserted his support for vouchers and entrepreneurial educators:

I believe very strongly that if the country gave each parent a voucher for forty-four hundred dollars that they could only spend at any accredited school several things would happen. Number one, schools would start marketing themselves like crazy to get students. Secondly, I think you'd see a lot of new schools starting…You could have twenty-five-year-old students out of college, very idealistic, full of energy instead of starting a Silicon Valley company, they'd start a school. I believe that they would do far better than any of our public schools would. The third thing you'd see is, I believe, is the quality of schools again, just in a competitive marketplace, start to rise. Some of the schools would go broke. A lot of the public schools would go broke. There's no question about it. It would be rather painful for the first several years…But far less painful I think than the kids going through the system as it is right now.

For Jobs, vouchers were only one piece of the education transformation puzzle. He realized that an incremental approach to reforming the existing mass schooling model does not work because of the power structures and bureaucratic tendencies inherent in conventional schooling. In the same Smithsonian interview, Jobs said:

I'd like the people teaching my kids to be good enough that they could get a job at the company I work for, making a hundred thousand dollars a year. Why should they work at a school for thirty-five to forty thousand dollars if they could get a job here at a hundred thousand dollars a year? Is that an intelligence test? The problem there, of course, is the unions. The unions are the worst thing that ever happened to education because it's not a meritocracy. It turns into a bureaucracy, which is exactly what has happened. The teachers can't teach and administrators run the place and nobody can be fired. It's terrible.



The chance of course of real change is slim to none. We've had the education model we've had for far too long and that makes it difficult to dramatically reform. Too much entrenched interests and it works well for people with money.

Smart guy, I would only ask him one question-how did all these pay for schools work out, like ITT Tech, trump university, beck U etc??

Bonus question: Why was that the results??

No, it is not a meritocracy, duh, the union is to protect them from those who would be kings in that meritocracy~like you have in COMMUNIST CHINA MERITOCRACY RIGHT NOW!!

This is totally a different direction I was thinking you would be going, I prob should have seen it w/ your first reference to the sage of Santa Clara..

Why not look @ some success stories that already exist, rather than in the mind of Jobs??

While we still have excellent higher education & institutions, our primary public schools are in shambles in many places..

Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, even China~Afterall this is the Asian century......

 

[cawacko]

Smart guy, I would only ask him one question-how did all these pay for schools work out, like ITT Tech, trump university, beck U etc??

Bonus question: Why was that the results??

No, it is not a meritocracy, duh, the union is to protect them from those who would be kings in that meritocracy~like you have in COMMUNIST CHINA MERITOCRACY RIGHT NOW!!

This is totally a different direction I was thinking you would be going, I prob should have seen it w/ your first reference to the sage of Santa Clara..

Why not look @ some success stories that already exist, rather than in the mind of Jobs??

While we still have excellent higher education & institutions, our primary public schools are in shambles in many places..

Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, even China~Afterall this is the Asian century......

Steve Jobs isn't the end all be all but what he says resonates me. And he acknowledged some schools might not work at first but we've had failing public schools littering cities across this country for decades, that shouldn't be the reason we are afraid of change.

Let's be honest, I'm lucky and baring something unforeseen she's going to get to an excellent school and be fine. So from that perspective maintaining the status quo works for me. But for whatever reason, this is an issue I'm passionate about (not that railing about it on here does anything). It's why I chose to volunteer and teach. And as I get older and see the same arguments year after year, decade after decade, and the results not changing to me that screams we need more than just incremental change.

I do think teachers should be paid more but I don't think all teachers should be paid the same because not all teachers are of the same ability. And I do think it should be easier to fire teachers. And I don't mean just constant churning but it's almost impossible to fire teachers today because of their union. Call it union bashing if you'd like but it is not a benefit to students for schools to no be able to get rid of poor teachers. And like any industry, not all teachers are good.

If you're a teacher, especially an average to mediocre one, of course you'll want to fight against that as will the union. And there's much more to education reform than what I just wrote but that's just addressing a couple of issues.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Smart guy, I would only ask him one question-how did all these pay for schools work out, like ITT Tech, trump university, beck U etc??

Bonus question: Why was that the results??

No, it is not a meritocracy, duh, the union is to protect them from those who would be kings in that meritocracy~like you have in COMMUNIST CHINA MERITOCRACY RIGHT NOW!!

This is totally a different direction I was thinking you would be going, I prob should have seen it w/ your first reference to the sage of Santa Clara..

Why not look @ some success stories that already exist, rather than in the mind of Jobs??

While we still have excellent higher education & institutions, our primary public schools are in shambles in many places..

Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, even China~Afterall this is the Asian century......

they're just planning on hooking up the next generation to a.I. through elon musks neural link. no education required.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

the borg: you will be assimilated.

 

[Bill]

One way to reduce government corruption is to reduce the power government has. The bigger the agency, the more power it generally has. And people tend to not like to give up power.

Since we're talking education how many people who are a part of the education bureaucracy are willingly going to say "our organization has too much power and it's not having a positive impact we thought it would so we should work to reduce our funding and lesson our role?" It's not going to happen. People generally don't want to put themselves out of a job.

How much of that is unique to education, gubment or just common to man?? Pretty rare for anyone to voluntarily put themselves out of a job aint it??

The educational system needs to be removed from politics as much as possible~they have their agendas-keep them out of the school..

Reduce, reduce, reduce, mantra.. Reduce their power, their money~ & demand better results & outcomes........ Not like we haven't herd this a few zillion times... Sometimes that is a valid call~sometimes it aint...

What I have seen over the many years is some folks/politicians bitching about how something is all so bad, well WTF, you did everything in your power to destroy it, to under fund it etc then bitch cause it aint functioning up to your expectations......

IMHO these are some of the reasons why our system sucks, not just cause we aren't following visionaries w/ great ideas...... & what a fuckin mountain to climb of entrenched interests. OyE fCKIN VaY!!!!