what is too much and why don't the people that count speak up?

Care4all said:
so you don't think the shareholders, for their own benefit, should put a stop to this practice?

you really expect the shareholders to put up with their profits being just given away each year, $400 million a shot?

well, i disagree with you....it is stealing profits from the shareholder when it is something like $370 million a year as the pay for just ONE CEO imo...
and the stock holders must become more informed instead of their ostrich heads in the ground!
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Well I am pretty sure that shareholders ARE aware of it, if you are aware of it care. And this Hasn't been a problem so far, has it?

Secondly, you're argument isn't about returning that money to the shareholders, but instead giving it to the janitors and the rest of the low class. And if that's the case, what difference would it make to the shareholders...?

Look, all I am asking is for you just to be honest instead of using a cloak for class warfare.
 
Grind said:
function doesn't matter. motive matters.

There, we flipped it.
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Motive matters to a psychologist or, perhaps, a market analyst. It certainly matters to the business executive. :) It doesn't matter at all, however, to someone trying to evaluate whether business, in general, is functioning effectively.

Function. Are we -- society -- getting what we need out of the economy? The only way to answer that question is to first identify what it is we need. What is it that business is supposed to do?

Look, if you don't like "purpose" or "function" use the word "effect" instead. What are the effects -- negative and positive -- of the business' activity?
 
Grind said:
Well I am pretty sure that shareholders ARE aware of it, if you are aware of it care. And this Hasn't been a problem so far, has it?

Secondly, you're argument isn't about returning that money to the shareholders, but instead giving it to the janitors and the rest of the low class. And if that's the case, what difference would it make to the shareholders...?

Look, all I am asking is for you just to be honest instead of using a cloak for class warfare.
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That was not my argument Grind.... I used the average worker's salary as a comparrison to show how ridiculous the salaries of some of these CEO's have become...making in one hour what the average worker makes in one year and that I believe this is unethical and STEALING from the stock holders....

I believe wall street agrees with me and is working on some regulations to prevent this from happening...

The only reason I know it is because I watched a 1 minute clip on Lou dobbs not because this has been all over the news, and in addition to this, most shareholders DO NOT KNOW what ceo's are making and they don't care because they feel the board must be doing their job...kinda like how they elect their representative in congress and then really don't pay attention until the next election....

There are a few men like Chap and topspin that do pay attention but most people do not and obviously the market Funds that carry these stocks have been MUM on the issue....they are part of the BOYS CLUB too, as was proven with the Enron case and the global crossing case....
 
Care4all said:
What is too much, if there is such a thing?

Should a man that sits behind a desk, get paid for ONE HOUR of his work, what their average worker gets paid for one FULL YEAR of work?

Why don't stockholders speak out against this, since it is really taking money from them and their profits....

And how does things like this happen, without SOMEONE thinking that perhaps this is not really the right thing to do, for the corporation on a whole?

I am all for getting a good raise and a good salary and fighting for every penny that I deserve, but when does it reach a point where the person receiving and actually ASKING for this kind of salary think that they really might be asking for too much money? That getting paid in one HOUR what your worker gets paid for working one FULL YEAR?

Is this greed on the CEO's part? what is it that could lead a person to ask for this kind of salary?
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I have no problem with anyone making what they legally can. We may all be created equal, but from there on, life is not fair. Some things are the luck of the draw: Which parents, which country, etc. Sticking with the US, the other variables are within each of us, by the choices we make along the way. If genetics gives one the luck of athleticism and height and interests lead to basketball, one may well be lucky indeed.

Then again, if one's interests and gifts puts them in the front of a classroom, the dreams of a yacht may not be strong enough to overcome the daily job of a career that brings joy. It's not like the salary thing is a secret.

Choices of not performing in school, but being really interested and working at a craft, may not bring the $$$ of the CEO, but will probably still support a family well, perhaps building custom cabinets or furniture for the CEO that can do so?

Someone with the same attitude about school as just preceding, but without any development of skills will in all liklihood be the ones some are so worried about at Walmart, a trash collector-not bad $$$, or some other low paying position. (Note: I said legally earning money).
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Motive matters to a psychologist or, perhaps, a market analyst. It certainly matters to the business executive. :) It doesn't matter at all, however, to someone trying to evaluate whether business, in general, is functioning effectively.

Function. Are we -- society -- getting what we need out of the economy? The only way to answer that question is to first identify what it is we need. What is it that business is supposed to do?

Look, if you don't like "purpose" or "function" use the word "effect" instead. What are the effects -- negative and positive -- of the business' activity?
Click to expand...

A business's function is to make money. It is to make profit. That IS it's function. A business does not exist to serve society, society exists to serve the business.
 
Care4all said:
That was not my argument Grind.... I used the average worker's salary as a comparrison to show how ridiculous the salaries of some of these CEO's have become...making in one hour what the average worker makes in one year and that I believe this is unethical and STEALING from the stock holders....

I believe wall street agrees with me and is working on some regulations to prevent this from happening...

The only reason I know it is because I watched a 1 minute clip on Lou dobbs not because this has been all over the news, and in addition to this, most shareholders DO NOT KNOW what ceo's are making and they don't care because they feel the board must be doing their job...kinda like how they elect their representative in congress and then really don't pay attention until the next election....

There are a few men like Chap and topspin that do pay attention but most people do not and obviously the market Funds that carry these stocks have been MUM on the issue....they are part of the BOYS CLUB too, as was proven with the Enron case and the global crossing case....
Click to expand...


So then you are saying that all the extra money should go to the stockholders, not to the low class workers?

Cause I could accept that.
 
Grind said:
A business's function is to make money. It is to make profit. That IS it's function. A business does not exist to serve society, society exists to serve the business.
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<*sigh*> Has the collective IQ around here dropped 30 points today or are you all just sniffing glue? I'm leaning toward the latter. It's probably Robdawg's fault.

You're playing around with the fuzziness of vernacular language. I suspect you know that quite well. By "function" I explicitly do NOT mean the motivation/conscious reason why the owners of the business own it. I don't care why they own it, as I've said repeatedly. What I'm talking about is what the busines does.

Clearly, every business does something. I mean, they're not just in there printing money, right? They do something for which people pay them. They either make something, transport something or provide some other service. THAT is the function of the business. Don't be deliberately dense.

What does the business produce? That is it's contribution to society, along with the employment it provides for employees.

The original thesis -- one I happen to agree with -- was that our economic system is going through a dysfunctional period right now. Profitability has become somewhat decoupled from real productivity. The question is whether this is a big problem or just a little one.

Can we please stop the Toby-esque pimple-picking now?
 
"Can we please stop the Toby-esque pimple-picking now?"

I disagree with you and I don't think you are making much sense.

"what the busines does."

The business generates profit. That is the universally binding function of every business (at least the successful ones) I don't see why it matters that the way in which a a business may go about obtaining this goal is of any significance.

You keep going back to what a business does, or what it's function to society is, but generating profit isn't something to be put aside and relegated to what you would call the carrot. I really don't even see your point.
 
Grind said:
So then you are saying that all the extra money should go to the stockholders, not to the low class workers?

Cause I could accept that.
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I think there are a number of things that could be done with this extra money... that could produce MORE for the stockholder's return on investment...

it could be reinvestment back in to the company or in to the company's people that produce, or higher dividend returns to the stockholder....
whatever brings the best ROI for the company/and the shareholder...at least in the long run.
 
Grind said:
"Can we please stop the Toby-esque pimple-picking now?"

I disagree with you and I don't think you are making much sense.

"what the busines does."

The business generates profit. That is the universally binding function of every business (at least the successful ones) I don't see why it matters that the way in which a a business may go about obtaining this goal is of any significance.

You keep going back to what a business does, or what it's function to society is, but generating profit isn't something to be put aside and relegated to what you would call the carrot. I really don't even see your point.
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You really don't see that?

:wall:

No wonder the cons are so screwed up.
:dunno:
 
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Look care, stockholders don't care. It's not rocket science that ceo's get paid A LOT OF MONEY. This isn't a groundbreaking discovery. And the amount of money that the ceos DO get isn't going to make THAT much of a difference if you throw it back into the company...

You just don't like people being very rich, well guess what? too bad.
 
I missed UScitizen!!!
Something needs to be done. No one is in favor of the system except the boards and the ceo's. Some kind of regulation regarding outside directors and improved shareholder power.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
LMAO! This is hysterical. It's like a Marx Brothers routine.

Read my glyphs: motive doesn't matter. I don't care about motive. I'm talking about function. Social function. What does the business accomplish? How does society benefit from its existence? Those are the questions that matter.

Society doesn't really need businesses. Society needs to organize labor. Society needs to have food produced and distributed. It needs to have shelter constructed and maintained. Society needs to support a specialization of labor if people want to live in something more elaborate than hovels. This is what I mean by "function." It has nothing to do with money or motive.

Business is one method of meeting those needs. It happens to be a rather good and elegant method, but one should never confuse method with function: it's a good way to get your horse rear-ended.
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You allow your arrogance to take over again. Once again, we see that it is only your opinion (and a ridiculous one at that) that matters. Businesses are created for the sole purpose (open any business text) of providing income to their owners. There is no other purpose for which a business is created.

Whether you like it or not we live in a capitalistic society.

It appears that what you want is nothing more than socialism. Let the government run all businesses for the betterment of the common good. That is NOT the system of government we have chosen nor the one I want to live under. Pictures of Adolf Hitle entering your mind?

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
You allow your arrogance to take over again. Once again, we see that it is only your opinion (and a ridiculous one at that) that matters. Businesses are created for the sole purpose (open any business text) of providing income to their owners. There is no other purpose for which a business is created.

Whether you like it or not we live in a capitalistic society.

It appears that what you want is nothing more than socialism. Let the government run all businesses for the betterment of the common good. That is NOT the system of government we have chosen nor the one I want to live under. Pictures of Adolf Hitle entering your mind?

Immie
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good morning immie!

i think you are wrong, or our government thinks you are wrong....they are supposedly so involved in promoting business FOR ''WE THE PEOPLE'S'' benefit thru regulation, deregulation, legislation, corporate welfare, trade negotiations, stock market regulations, the SEC, etc..... all for us... not to make one individual business owner profitable!


just think about it, our own government believes ''businesses'' are there for us...at least i believe they treat it that way most of the time...

care
 
our government even takes home owner's land away to promote and give favor to businesses thru eminent domain... :(
 
Care4all said:
good morning immie!

i think you are wrong, or our government thinks you are wrong....they are supposedly so involved in promoting business FOR ''WE THE PEOPLE'S'' benefit thru regulation, deregulation, legislation, corporate welfare, trade negotiations, stock market regulations, the SEC, etc..... all for us... not to make one individual business owner profitable!


just think about it, our own government believes ''businesses'' are there for us...at least i believe they treat it that way most of the time...

care
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Wrong, Care, the government takes taxes from businesses and use those taxes for the benefit of the people. The government also regulates those businesses to keep those businesses from putting profit so far out in front of everything else that the motive hurts the general public.

In many ways the government can be viewed as a leech.

Immie
 
immie, our government considers business as a lifeline to ''we the people'', part of the ''pursuit of happiness'' i would imagine, are you continuing to deny this? or am i misunderstanding this whole stance of yours?
 
Care4all said:
immie, our government considers business as a lifeline to ''we the people'', part of the ''pursuit of happiness'' i would imagine, are you continuing to deny this? or am i misunderstanding this whole stance of yours?
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What is the "Pursuit of Happiness"? Wealth for the most part.

I am sure you see it as everyone being considered equal and having exactly the same things (income, wealth, materials etc.) But that is not the "American Dream".

Immie
 
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