What's your spiritual faith and why do you believe in it?

Sun Devil said:
Like I said, you're a phony and I exposed your lies about your so-called Masters in Theology and obviously you couldn't even sidebar me on the issue of foreknowledge and predestination. You'd rather argue on something that I've clearly clarified since you've made the error of assuming. Since I've clarified that point what else are you going to argue because this round-about conversation is rather tiresome.
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/shrugs....you fucked up.....I pointed it out......you backed off......the rest is just the bitter aftertaste in your mouth.....quenched by dribbling lies from your lips.......
 
Sun Devil said:
If predestination exists there is no freewill......
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lol....you just can't avoid saying stupid things can you.......predestination does not interfere with free will......God doesn't MAKE you do stupid things.....you are not aware of his foreknowledge, thus it does not control your choice.......
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
It appears that you WANT to believe in predetermination; because that way it takes away all the responsibility for your actions. You can just BLAME it on "predetermination".

We all have free will and it's our usage of it, is what determines our future and where he will eventually be.

You're just looking for an escape route.
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USF.....No my friend I don't WANT predeterminism I believe predeterminism exists, but whether predeterminism is something that is of God is another story. I'm not sure where your religious convictions lie, but I believe in most of the Abrahamic traditions God has (either in part or entire) control over the world and the actions of men. Grant it, I'm not saying in every motion or reaction we are merely the puppet while the puppeteer controls us no. I mean that in every action we do it is most certainly cause by the actions of another.

For example, people say we have freewill. Although we may have freewill most certainly I believe consequences in of themselves can indeed determine our future actions. Even if we leave God out of the equation it is provable fact that actions of others can indirectly the future actions of people.
 
Sun Devil said:
USF.....No my friend I don't WANT predeterminism I believe predeterminism exists, but whether predeterminism is something that is of God is another story. I'm not sure where your religious convictions lie, but I believe in most of the Abrahamic traditions God has (either in part or entire) control over the world and the actions of men. Grant it, I'm not saying in every motion or reaction we are merely the puppet while the puppeteer controls us no. I mean that in every action we do it is most certainly cause by the actions of another.

For example, people say we have freewill. Although we may have freewill most certainly I believe consequences in of themselves can indeed determine our future actions. Even if we leave God out of the equation it is provable fact that actions of others can indirectly the future actions of people.
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You continue to look at this, like it's a one way road in the middle of nowhere.
Life instead is a freeway, with many lanes and off ramps that lead to other freeways.
While God may have chosen a path for you, your free will allows you to ignore it and travel a different direction.
It would possibly seem that since you don't know which road or lane to travel, that you expect it to be pointed out to you with directions; instead of reflecting on your life and seeing what changes need to be made, making those changes, and continuing on.
Mankind is not a bunch of marionettes, with the strings (our actions) being controlled by God.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
You continue to look at this, like it's a one way road in the middle of nowhere.
Life instead is a freeway, with many lanes and off ramps that lead to other freeways.
While God may have chosen a path for you, your free will allows you to ignore it and travel a different direction.
It would possibly seem that since you don't know which road or lane to travel, that you expect it to be pointed out to you with directions; instead of reflecting on your life and seeing what changes need to be made, making those changes, and continuing on.
Mankind is not a bunch of marionettes, with the strings (our actions) being controlled by God.
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So let me ask you something do you believe in freewill and determinism? I'm curious what you believe on these issues because I mean, it's quite clear you believe in freewill but I'm wondering if you also believe in determinism as well. Of course you know I do not believe in freewill. I'm not saying that I'm not free to NOT commit a crime but I'm saying that forces that are beyond my control can determine my actions and even though there are multiple so-called choices I can make I simply believe like those Muslim theologians the choices i make are mere decrees of my actions and that my choices are NOT infinite and are only respective of my circumstance (I hope that makes some sense).
 
Sun Devil said:
USF.....No my friend I don't WANT predeterminism I believe predeterminism exists, but whether predeterminism is something that is of God is another story. I'm not sure where your religious convictions lie, but I believe in most of the Abrahamic traditions God has (either in part or entire) control over the world and the actions of men. Grant it, I'm not saying in every motion or reaction we are merely the puppet while the puppeteer controls us no. I mean that in every action we do it is most certainly cause by the actions of another.

For example, people say we have freewill. Although we may have freewill most certainly I believe consequences in of themselves can indeed determine our future actions. Even if we leave God out of the equation it is provable fact that actions of others can indirectly the future actions of people.
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lol.....if we choose not to agree with you, do we fuck up your beliefs?.....
 
Sun Devil said:
So let me ask you something do you believe in freewill and determinism? I'm curious what you believe on these issues because I mean, it's quite clear you believe in freewill but I'm wondering if you also believe in determinism as well. Of course you know I do not believe in freewill. I'm not saying that I'm not free to NOT commit a crime but I'm saying that forces that are beyond my control can determine my actions and even though there are multiple so-called choices I can make I simply believe like those Muslim theologians the choices i make are mere decrees of my actions and that my choices are NOT infinite and are only respective of my circumstance (I hope that makes some sense).
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Your statement is nothing more then sounding like someone who refuses to take FULL responsibility for all of their actions.
If someone is holding a gun to your head and demanding your wallet, you still have the free will to tell that person to fuck off; you just need to be prepared for the outcome/consequences.
We are the arbitrators of our lives; most people just fail to consider the outcomes, prior to acting on their desires.

Your argument reminds me of this little story:

A small city experienced a terrible flood and one man in particular, was trapped on his roof.
He cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
As the water was rising, a man in a canoe came by and asked him if he needed help.
He replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

The water continued to rise and again the man cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
Pretty soon a man in a small row boat came by and asked the man if he needed help.
And the man replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

Now the water had risen so high; that just the smallest part of the edge of the roof was exposed, the man stood upon it and cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
A man in a motor boat came by and asked the man if he needed help.
And the man replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

The water continued to rise and the man drowned.
As he stood before God, in Heaven, he asked.
"OH LORD; WHY DID YOU NOT SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
And the Lord replied "I SENT YOU THREE BOATS, WHY DID YOU NOT BELIEVE"?

By the way, I believe in free will; but do not believe that our lives are predetermined.
I also believe that there is a path available for us, that is chosen for us; but it's up to us to decided to follow it or not.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Your statement is nothing more then sounding like someone who refuses to take FULL responsibility for all of their actions.
If someone is holding a gun to your head and demanding your wallet, you still have the free will to tell that person to fuck off; you just need to be prepared for the outcome/consequences.
We are the arbitrators of our lives; most people just fail to consider the outcomes, prior to acting on their desires.

Your argument reminds me of this little story:

A small city experienced a terrible flood and one man in particular, was trapped on his roof.
He cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
As the water was rising, a man in a canoe came by and asked him if he needed help.
He replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

The water continued to rise and again the man cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
Pretty soon a man in a small row boat came by and asked the man if he needed help.
And the man replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

Now the water had risen so high; that just the smallest part of the edge of the roof was exposed, the man stood upon it and cried out "OH LORD SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
A man in a motor boat came by and asked the man if he needed help.
And the man replied "NO, THE LORD WILL SAVE ME".

The water continued to rise and the man drowned.
As he stood before God, in Heaven, he asked.
"OH LORD; WHY DID YOU NOT SAVE ME, THOU SERVANT".
And the Lord replied "I SENT YOU THREE BOATS, WHY DID YOU NOT BELIEVE"?

By the way, I believe in free will; but do not believe that our lives are predetermined.
I also believe that there is a path available for us, that is chosen for us; but it's up to us to decided to follow it or not.
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All you had to say was you believe in freewill and no, do not misconstrue my argument of predeterminism as if I'm saying we are not responsible. If in fact you believe in freewill without predeterminism then if you subscribe to the tenants of the Abrahamic faith then there are some problems you may encounter. For one, if you do believe in freewill without a predetermined life then you'd probably subscribe to the deist view in that you believe God exists but is apathetic to human concern. If you in fact believe in freewill and God's intervention via divine providence then you'd probably run into some problems regarding foreknowledge, causality, and morality.

But to return to my beliefs on pre-determinism I think you may misunderstand my beliefs of pre-determinism with the lack of responsibility which is not what I'm saying. On matters of morality I believe there are both subjective and universal truths of right and wrong. I as agnostic believe there is nothing morally wrong with being gay, someone who is fundamentalist Christian, Jewish or Muslim may disagree and believe there is something fundamentally and morally wrong with being gay, but what we can all agree on is someone who wants to stab a newborn in the chest for no apparent reason is morally wrong.

I also believe stealing is wrong, but I believe that stealing on the basis of reason varies depending on the circumstance of the individual. If you're poor with no means to purchase food and you are hungry and there are no alternatives to theivery, then I find stealing although socially wrong (not morally wrong, but social, and by social I mean breaking the law), is necessary to attain sustenance. When discussing pre-determinism this belief of mine is to not excuse the moral principles of what is socially right and wrong, it is to understand that on a universal level I believe in pre-determined causality of things and I believe there are successive events that can directly and indirectly determine the course of other things effected within the sphere of such events.

I just don't see how you're not getting my view. It is fine for you to disagree but this is a strong argument.
 
Sun Devil said:
All you had to say was you believe in freewill and no, do not misconstrue my argument of predeterminism as if I'm saying we are not responsible. If in fact you believe in freewill without predeterminism then if you subscribe to the tenants of the Abrahamic faith then there are some problems you may encounter. For one, if you do believe in freewill without a predetermined life then you'd probably subscribe to the deist view in that you believe God exists but is apathetic to human concern. If you in fact believe in freewill and God's intervention via divine providence then you'd probably run into some problems regarding foreknowledge, causality, and morality.

But to return to my beliefs on pre-determinism I think you may misunderstand my beliefs of pre-determinism with the lack of responsibility which is not what I'm saying. On matters of morality I believe there are both subjective and universal truths of right and wrong. I as agnostic believe there is nothing morally wrong with being gay, someone who is fundamentalist Christian, Jewish or Muslim may disagree and believe there is something fundamentally and morally wrong with being gay, but what we can all agree on is someone who wants to stab a newborn in the chest for no apparent reason is morally wrong.

I also believe stealing is wrong, but I believe that stealing on the basis of reason varies depending on the circumstance of the individual. If you're poor with no means to purchase food and you are hungry and there are no alternatives to theivery, then I find stealing although socially wrong (not morally wrong, but social, and by social I mean breaking the law), is necessary to attain sustenance. When discussing pre-determinism this belief of mine is to not excuse the moral principles of what is socially right and wrong, it is to understand that on a universal level I believe in pre-determined causality of things and I believe there are successive events that can directly and indirectly determine the course of other things effected within the sphere of such events.

I just don't see how you're not getting my view. It is fine for you to disagree but this is a strong argument.
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1. No, I don't believe that God is apathetic and why would I have a problem regarding "foreknowledge, causality, and morality".
2. Who said that everyone needs to believe as everyone else believes?
3. Morals are subjective to each individual; but since society usually sets the collective morals, either we follow them or try to have them changed.
4. Maybe the fault lies in your presentation and desire to make things an absolute.
 
+1 to #1

and for clarification, SD was the transition from pre-destined to pre-determined intentional?.....did the topic change or do you consider them to be the same thing?......
 
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Rose said:
It's to differentiate between god as a common noun, and God as a name. I think he's saying that because Muslims refer to God as Allah, their god is different.
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It's just their way of trying to show respect. I used to get annoyed about it, but I'm not quite so butthurt these days.
 
Sun Devil said:
Hell No!

Back in the 60's my mother and brother were in the Nation of Islam but growing up, I read up on Malcolm X and how the Nation of Islam pretty much killed the man after his break with the nation and his new realization about "true Islam" when he went on Hajj or the pilgrimage to Mecca. Most of my knowledge of Islam came from actually attending mosques, reading Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an. I actually have a transliteration of the Holy Qur'an. But in no way did I ever consider N.O.I. Maybe if I was living in the 40's and 50's I probably would due to racial segregation but not now.
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Transliteration? You mean Arabic spelled using the latin alphabet?
 
Sun Devil said:
Which is why I gave the example of the Roman soldier.....If God knows the Roman soldier is going to throw a physically "defective" baby off a cliff and does nothing to prevent it, either God willed it so, or God refrain from intervening.
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The Spartans were the ones who threw defective babies off a cliff, not the Romans.
 
Tyrion the Imp said:
Transliteration? You mean Arabic spelled using the latin alphabet?
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No. A transliteration is the conversion of one writing system script to another.

The following picture is an example (please click the picture to get a better view):


View attachment 2587


As you can see you not only have the Arabic script, the letter form of Arabic and the English translation of the Arabic script (and written form).
 
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