What's your spiritual faith and why do you believe in it?

PostmodernProphet said:
the entire conversation up to this point....














apparently saying "If something is an association of another thing they collectively become something" is different in your mind from saying "predesination" is "omniscience"?.....did it somehow over the course of this conversation not become obvious that what I was objecting to was the equating of the two terms?......now, you try to weasel out of it by saying it wasn't a part of the conversation?.....if that's the case, why didn't you just say "oh, you're right" on the very first post?.......
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You posting the entire conservation was a moot effort.......Let's just say the entire line of communication was lost based on your interpretation of what you thought I said as opposed to what I was actually saying. I knew what I was saying and I made that clear. You wanted to emphasize what you thought I said and subsequent posts of mine clearly demonstrated what I was saying. For your disdain of me you intentionally refused to see my point and just wanted to emphasize what you thought I said to show I guess that I was incompetent.

For the millionth time I made no inference that foreknowledge and predestination are one in the same, but on matters of causality and the issue of freewill, good and evil, there is a relationship. Now that I've said that we can move on....But, you didn't answer my 3 questions though.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
Post #42 I said that predestination wasn't a fundamentalist concept.......you chose to contest that, saying it was, because omniscience was a fundamentalist concept......I pointed out they were not the same thing, you've been arguing against that ever since....
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I said the idea, argument, problem, what have you regarding predestination and foreknowledge is an issue that Christian philosophers, that is Christian, Catholic, whatever these thinkers have been discussing this for centuries. You Mr. Masters of Theology didn't get that. Perhaps you'd look at the other responses I've said to the other posters. This is a problem that has been widely discussed (See Thomas Aquinas).
 
Sardonic said:
I question his claim as well.

He gave an example once and it didn't even reach middle school level.

It was quite amusing.
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LMAO yeah I know. Especially when I use question #2 all Masters students know what writing style their respective program uses when doing their Masters Thesis so that is why I posed that question.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
.....right....since we all know its a great idea to share personally identifying information on this board....
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There is nothing personal about me questioning you....Here I'll go first

1) I wrote a 110 page research thesis on Frontotemporal Dementia and the late onset of Hypersexuality of geriatric patient with the advanced case od Dementia. My thesis was written in APA style format (as most psychology thesis' are written).

2) See above....I also had to orally defend my research which I passed and did well on. The reason most students in my program had to defend their research was because we had to show competence in the research we are defending and to also have our research critiqued. Most psychology research to validate individual findings has to have the potential to be replicated to validate its hypothesis.

3) I completed my Masters at the University of Southern California.

See how easy that was?
 
As we all know Postmodernpoet is a phony....You were better off leaving the "I have a Masters in Theology" remark out of it....
 
Sun Devil said:
I said the idea, argument, problem, what have you regarding predestination and foreknowledge is an issue that Christian philosophers, that is Christian, Catholic, whatever these thinkers have been discussing this for centuries. You Mr. Masters of Theology didn't get that. Perhaps you'd look at the other responses I've said to the other posters. This is a problem that has been widely discussed (See Thomas Aquinas).
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and you, Mr Possible Undergraduate Course in Philosophy should leave it at the point where you admitted that you really didn't mean to say that predestination was the same thing as omniscience......I didn't respond to your post because it had nothing to do with the discussion, not because I was shaken by your powerful rhetoric.....
 
Sun Devil said:
As we all know Postmodernpoet is a phony....You were better off leaving the "I have a Masters in Theology" remark out of it....
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lol.....you demonstrate more aptly what you do NOT know.....but if it makes you feel better I did a case study on the utilization of the internet as a method of community development in church planting.....that's how I first got involved with boards such as this one.....research.......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
obviously not..it apparently enabled you to see your error and retract it....



in that limited instance, you are astute...
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Nothing was retracted. I clarified what I said because obviously you read into something that was not there. Anyway, I refuted your idea and yet you keep harping on this.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
lol.....you demonstrate more aptly what you do NOT know.....but if it makes you feel better I did a case study on the utilization of the internet as a method of community development in church planting.....that's how I first got involved with boards such as this one.....research.......
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Like I said, you're a phony and I exposed your lies about your so-called Masters in Theology and obviously you couldn't even sidebar me on the issue of foreknowledge and predestination. You'd rather argue on something that I've clearly clarified since you've made the error of assuming. Since I've clarified that point what else are you going to argue because this round-about conversation is rather tiresome.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
and you, Mr Possible Undergraduate Course in Philosophy should leave it at the point where you admitted that you really didn't mean to say that predestination was the same thing as omniscience......I didn't respond to your post because it had nothing to do with the discussion, not because I was shaken by your powerful rhetoric.....
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Please point out where I said "I didn't mean to say thus and so......."
 
PostmodernProphet said:
are you saying then that predestination IS omniscience?....
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No, I said there is a relationship.......If God has foreknowledge and predestination exists, then there is a relationship between God's foreknowledge and the lack of freewill or arguably predestination. As I said for the millionth time according to Christian and Muslim philosophers although God exist outside of time God sees the events of the world simultaneously as in seeing past, present, and future at once. Therefore if God knows the future of someone and they are "destined" to become a prophet then God wills that person to become a prophet therefore highlighting the impossibility of that person to be something else, and if the person does become something else, either God wills it, or God's knowledge of future events becomes imperfect.

Which is why I gave the example of the Roman soldier.....If God knows the Roman soldier is going to throw a physically "defective" baby off a cliff and does nothing to prevent it, either God willed it so, or God refrain from intervening. If God refrained from intervening then we as viewers of such actions would say that God's lack of intervention leads to the moral problem of good and evil. Even if God willed the event as so, it is still a moral problem because as viewers of the action we see that as an evil thing and God's retraint is thus either evil, or purposeful (but many would argue about the purpose of allowing such a cruel act to happen).
As you can see which I've explained clearly the idea of foreknowledge and predestination leads to a slippery slope. But it starts with God knowing the future...
 
Sun Devil said:
No, I said there is a relationship.......If God has foreknowledge and predestination exists, then there is a relationship between God's foreknowledge and the lack of freewill or arguably predestination. As I said for the millionth time according to Christian and Muslim philosophers although God exist outside of time God sees the events of the world simultaneously as in seeing past, present, and future at once. Therefore if God knows the future of someone and they are "destined" to become a prophet then God wills that person to become a prophet therefore highlighting the impossibility of that person to be something else, and if the person does become something else, either God wills it, or God's knowledge of future events becomes imperfect.

Which is why I gave the example of the Roman soldier.....If God knows the Roman soldier is going to throw a physically "defective" baby off a cliff and does nothing to prevent it, either God willed it so, or God refrain from intervening. If God refrained from intervening then we as viewers of such actions would say that God's lack of intervention leads to the moral problem of good and evil. Even if God willed the event as so, it is still a moral problem because as viewers of the action we see that as an evil thing and God's retraint is thus either evil, or purposeful (but many would argue about the purpose of allowing such a cruel act to happen).
As you can see which I've explained clearly the idea of foreknowledge and predestination leads to a slippery slope. But it starts with God knowing the future...
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Nice linear argument; but you left out the probability of many different possibilities, due to free will.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Nice linear argument; but you left out the probability of many different possibilities, due to free will.
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If predestination exists there is no freewill......Hence is why I said if God destined Moses to be a prophet there exists the impossibility of Moses to become something else.
 
Sun Devil said:
If predestination exists there is no freewill......Hence is why I said if God destined Moses to be a prophet there exists the impossibility of Moses to become something else.
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But at no point have I said that that was Moses only possibility, due to the inclusion of free will.
You want life to be a dowel rod, when it truth it's a tree, with many branches.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
But at no point have I said that that was Moses only possibility, due to the inclusion of free will.
You want life to be a dowel rod, when it truth it's a tree, with many branches.
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No. I used Moses as an example to demonstrate that when one is on a predetermined path the path is linear because you are going to one destination (although you can take multiple paths the end result amounts to one end). True, there are tons of possibilities one can be directed to but my point is if God directs someone to point A, points B, C, D, all the way to X even though they are possibilities of a predestined end, they remain insignificant because point A is the final destination. Moses cannot be point X if he is directed to point A. There is no individual will to choose otherwise if someone is predestined to be something. Now if you have a better argument than that I'm curious to read it.
 
Sun Devil said:
No. I used Moses as an example to demonstrate that when one is on a predetermined path the path is linear because you are going to one destination (although you can take multiple paths the end result amounts to one end). True, there are tons of possibilities one can be directed to but my point is if God directs someone to point A, points B, C, D, all the way to X even though they are possibilities of a predestined end, they remain insignificant because point A is the final destination. Moses cannot be point X if he is directed to point A. There is no individual will to choose otherwise if someone is predestined to be something. Now if you have a better argument than that I'm curious to read it.
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And once again you're referring to predesign and excluding free will.
At any one of Moses junctions in life, he could have chosen to go a different way and would not have ended up at the same point he did.
This is like saying that you're predestined to be a non-believer, so there's nothing you can do about it.

Look back at the number of different choices you could have made in your life and you will realize that they would not have led you to the same point in life, that you're now at.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
And once again you're referring to predesign and excluding free will.
At any one of Moses junctions in life, he could have chosen to go a different way and would not have ended up at the same point he did.
This is like saying that you're predestined to be a non-believer, so there's nothing you can do about it.

Look back at the number of different choices you could have made in your life and you will realize that they would not have led you to the same point in life, that you're now at.
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You're not getting it bro, when there is pre-determinism there is no freewill.....If you are determined by powers beyond your control you have no freewill. It may appear that you havge freewill, but a person's actions are done within the confines of the predetermined path. It's not really a choice, its merely paths one take to get to the same goal. Now looking back at my life (as you suggested), I could've made different choices and those choices could have lead me to a different avenue of my life but who knows, those choices still could lead me to the end goal which is whatever path that was predetermined for me. That is, if I consider whether or not pre-determinism exists. I for one believe that pre-determinism exists and that there is no absolute freewill. I believe that our actions are guided directly and indirectly by forces beyond our control Even if there was no God, I believe the actions of humans can indirectly determine the actions of others.


In Islamic philosophy, the idea of freewill and determinism is somewhat intertwined. The Muslims believe that all actions are predetermined by God and that God wills it. The free actions are what God decrees, or allows a human to do. In essence there is no absolute freewill because everything works within a predetermined sphere, just as God determining that the earth should rotate on a tilted axis so are the human actions to be determined. Come on USF you know I'm right. there is no freewill if predeterminism exists.
 
Sun Devil said:
You're not getting it bro, when there is pre-determinism there is no freewill.....If you are determined by powers beyond your control you have no freewill. It may appear that you havge freewill, but a person's actions are done within the confines of the predetermined path. It's not really a choice, its merely paths one take to get to the same goal. Now looking back at my life (as you suggested), I could've made different choices and those choices could have lead me to a different avenue of my life but who knows, those choices still could lead me to the end goal which is whatever path that was predetermined for me. That is, if I consider whether or not pre-determinism exists. I for one believe that pre-determinism exists and that there is no absolute freewill. I believe that our actions are guided directly and indirectly by forces beyond our control Even if there was no God, I believe the actions of humans can indirectly determine the actions of others.


In Islamic philosophy, the idea of freewill and determinism is somewhat intertwined. The Muslims believe that all actions are predetermined by God and that God wills it. The free actions are what God decrees, or allows a human to do. In essence there is no absolute freewill because everything works within a predetermined sphere, just as God determining that the earth should rotate on a tilted axis so are the human actions to be determined. Come on USF you know I'm right. there is no freewill if predeterminism exists.
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It appears that you WANT to believe in predetermination; because that way it takes away all the responsibility for your actions. You can just BLAME it on "predetermination".

We all have free will and it's our usage of it, is what determines our future and where he will eventually be.

You're just looking for an escape route.
 
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