When Will We Recover From The Civil War? Now Is The Time.

[Truck Fump / h1b]

You're right, it's not going to happen, not soon, anyway, but it isn't totally absurd.

The fact that it's not going to happen means people are OK living in a nation where one half genuinely hates the other half, and it's never going to change.
I can see how it is, Politalker. I'm a realist, not a Pollyanna. And as a Sicilian, born in a vendetta culture, hating is my stock in trade.

And my minimum standards not to have to hate are WAY, WAY WAY higher than yours, apparently.

That's ok. We are what we are.
This world is no goddamned intelligent design, obviously.
It's the random confluence of sub-atomic particles in the vacuum of space.
If yours is the sperm that wins the swimming race, you get life...and life in America is a sentence, not a gift, as long as we have to tolerate the kind of cretins who voted for Trump.
I won't do it. I'd rather be in a state of rage all of the time until I die.

leave then, cocksucker.

 

[Saudade]

Canada has immigration laws, idiot.
If I were welcome to move there or to the UK, I'd be there already.

Immigrating to Canada isn't that difficult, actually. Granted, if you don't have any appreciable job skills, you might find it difficult.

 

[RB 60]

Immigrating to Canada isn't that difficult, actually. Granted, if you don't have any appreciable job skills, you might find it difficult.

...or a criminal record.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello NiftyNiblick,

You're right, it's not going to happen, not soon, anyway, but it isn't totally absurd.

The fact that it's not going to happen means people are OK living in a nation where one half genuinely hates the other half, and it's never going to change.

That is an opinion. We have no way of knowing what the future will bring. Predictions of the future can never be hard fast facts. Sure. I agree there is plenty of hatred. I do not agree that half the country hates the other half. Yes, there is lots of hatred. Yes, it is being amped up by hurtful rhetoric. Yes, it is also being well portrayed in the media. If it bleeds it leads. Controversy is king. And because of that, stories of people still respecting one another and getting along just fine are not presented. But I tell you this. Everyone is not a hater. People do not enjoy hatred. People are tired of it. People want to live in peace. Most people simply wish to enjoy their lives. This hatred fad that has been going around could become old and tired. People are tired of hatred and hating. Hating is no fun. It is not logical to spend a life embroiled in hatred, not desirable. Times could change. They usually do. We do not know what the future will bring.

I can see how it is, Politalker. I'm a realist, not a Pollyanna. And as a Sicilian, born in a vendetta culture, hating is my stock in trade.

Yeah, well, it's not that way with everyone.

And my minimum standards not to have to hate are WAY, WAY WAY higher than yours, apparently.

That's ok. We are what we are.
This world is no goddamned intelligent design, obviously.
It's the random confluence of sub-atomic particles in the vacuum of space.
If yours is the sperm that wins the swimming race, you get life...and life in America is a sentence, not a gift, as long as we have to tolerate the kind of cretins who voted for Trump.
I won't do it. I'd rather be in a state of rage all of the time until I die.

I have no such mandate of hatred. I do quite well without it. I love my life, actually. Life is fantastic, wonderful, a thing to be cherished, nurtured, enjoyed. I have a loving circle of friends who are not violent nor hateful. Friends of all political beliefs. Supporters of the president. I don't hate them. They don't hate me. We are not in the news yelling things in the street, not carrying signs nor brandishing weapons. I love my friends and I love my life. I talk to my friends. I try to understand their reasons for supporting the president. I find it fascinating that they can support this man who seems so wrong for the job. But I can not tell them they are wrong to do that. They have to be free to make up their own minds. That's the way our country was designed to work. People of differing views voting for whomever they please. Learning, getting informed, discussing the business of the nation.

The beauty of this nation is that we have this diversity of views, that we allow all views and the freedom to openly discuss politics. A well functioning democracy depends on the active engagement of a well informed populace. It doesn't depend on being liberal or being conservative. It depends on having both the left and the right represented in government. It is wrong to tell people what they should believe. The best we can do is to make a convincing argument why our way is better. I am liberal but I understand we cannot have a strictly liberal nation. Nor a conservative one.

A vendetta is wrong. Seeking vengeance is a recipe for a very stressful and troubled life. Hatred hurts the hater far more than the hated. Revenge is the pursuit of fools. They don't know how to enjoy life. Maybe it is the fact that I am unencumbered by religion. I only have faith in mankind. Logic guides me. Logic says we only live so long, so we might as well try to enjoy as much of our existence as possible while we have the chance. All too soon our lives will be over. I would never dream of wasting my precious life on hatred. This is a fascinating world and there is so much to please one, so much pleasure and enjoyment to be sought. That is how I logically choose to use my limited time on this planet.

I know everyone is not like me. And I also know that everyone is not like you. I believe it is a mistake to think that half of this nation actually hates the other half. I think that has been blown way out of proportion by a media which thrives on controversy. I think most people want to get along with others and not be ruled by hatred. I think our leader has made the polarization worse on purpose for his own political gain. I see that has not been working out very well for him. I certainly hope the nation loses enough faith in him that he is replaced in November.

We are just in a rough phase. It doesn't have to always be this way.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

.

The beauty of this nation is that we have this diversity of views, that we allow all views and the freedom to openly discuss politics.

I understand we cannot have a strictly liberal nation. Nor a conservative one.

Our extreme ideological diversity is why America is being proven to be a failed experiment.

We MUST be either a socialist country or a fascist one. Those are the only real choices in the real world All compromises are an illusion as none have ever succeeded...just as we're failing now.
And straddling a fence is what destroys our nads.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello NiftyNiblick,

Our extreme ideological diversity is why America is being proven to be a failed experiment.

OK, let's entertain that thought for a moment. If true, and this nation came out of the US Constitution, the implication is that the Constitution is flawed. So if the whole idea of America is a failure, what founding document of a new better nation could possibly be better? Do you think you can write a better document?

We MUST be either a socialist country or a fascist one. Those are the only real choices in the real world All compromises are an illusion as none have ever succeeded...just as we're failing now.
And straddling a fence is what destroys our nads.

Oh, I don't think we're failing. Sure, we've lost some ground on the road to creating the kind of America that allows the most to enjoy 'The American Dream,' But that is not a straight road and neither is it one of a gradual incline upward. Tis instead filled with curves, hills and valleys. We are in a valley. We'll get going back uphill again. We always do. Let him rant and rave. Remember: It could be his last few months in office. Oh, here's an interesting thought. Remember how the Senate didn't want to let Obama pick a SCOTUS in 2016? Even though a new nomination couldn't be made for another 10 months? The Garland nomination was something like 8 months ahead of the election and McConnell refused to even schedule a hearing. Suppose a new vacancy arose between now and the 2020 election. Who would be surprised if McConnell rushed a new nomination right through now?

 

[Triplelefthook]

Hello Triplelefthook,



I don't know. I would expect that the white kid still has the advantage. The wealth statistics support my perception. What is your belief?



Hands down. The evidence is clear. White kids in general have the advantage. Why do you even have to ask this question. The answer is glaringly obvious. If blacks felt they had a fair shot and were not being discriminated against they would not be protesting. Many whites now agree and are protesting alongside blacks. The nation has had enough of the crippling hatred. It needs to end.

I think you are probably right, but I was hoping for something more concrete than that. I ask these questions because the only thing I ever hear as evidence is "oh it's obvious, you can just see it." Without anything substantial to back it up or show it to me. I am not denying it, I was just hoping someone would be able to give me a bit more than that.

I see those measures as insufficient to address the problem, inflated statistics, part of the con, right wing propaganda. If blacks didn't feel repressed we would not be having all this social tension.



He has made himself a racist all the way back to when he prevented blacks from renting his father's apartments. He was raised by a racist. Nobody is born a racist, it is something that is learned. Being raised by a racist perpetuates racism.

Do you think it is OK that DT made very public statements declaring the guilt of the Central Park 5, but then later after they had been completely cleared of the crimes by DNA evidence, DT refused to make a retraction?

Do you think it is OK the way he referred to impoverished African nations as S-hole countries?

I don't think any of it is ok. But I am trying to disassociate myself from all of Trump's antics. His outlandish statements/tweets/misdirections.

I am looking at what he has done, First Step Act, the Opportunity Zones, restoring funding for black colleges, decrease in the country's poverty rate and a growing economy, a decreasing unemployment rate among black americans.... these are good things no?

Not good enough for you? There is another thread here that states these things are more than Biden has done in 30 years (a bit exaggerated, but no one in that thread refutes any of the claims), riots and violence against black people occurred during the Obama administration but we don't attribute that to his neglect of the black community? Or do you?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Triplelefthook,

I think you are probably right, but I was hoping for something more concrete than that. I ask these questions because the only thing I ever hear as evidence is "oh it's obvious, you can just see it." Without anything substantial to back it up or show it to me. I am not denying it, I was just hoping someone would be able to give me a bit more than that.




I don't think any of it is ok. But I am trying to disassociate myself from all of Trump's antics. His outlandish statements/tweets/misdirections.

I am looking at what he has done, First Step Act, the Opportunity Zones, restoring funding for black colleges, decrease in the country's poverty rate and a growing economy, a decreasing unemployment rate among black americans.... these are good things no?

Not good enough for you? There is another thread here that states these things are more than Biden has done in 30 years (a bit exaggerated, but no one in that thread refutes any of the claims), riots and violence against black people occurred during the Obama administration but we don't attribute that to his neglect of the black community? Or do you?

Yes, I do think Obama was a bit neglectful of racial tensions. And that is just part of his nature. He came from a mixed race family. He didn't spend a whole childhood in struggling black neighborhoods. He is not accustomed to being a race activist. He tried to stay out of it too much. I think he could have done a lot more for Black rights. Especially since the big reason all those racial tensions flared up then was in response to the affront of having a black president. Hate groups grew at an alarming rate during his tenure. He should have done more to address that. I get it that he didn't want to be remembered as a Black Rights President. He wanted Health Care Reform.

I also think DT rode in on a wave of anti minority / anti immigrant sentiment, and has exacerbated the problem repeatedly, and he is purposely fanning the flames of racial tension by holding his rally in Tulsa, home of the Black Wall Street Massacre. The reason he is doing this is because he doesn't want Coronavirus to dominate the news. He must feel he polls better as a racist than as an inept leader of the nation with the most Covid.

 

[Triplelefthook]

Hello Triplelefthook,



Yes, I do think Obama was a bit neglectful of racial tensions. And that is just part of his nature. He came from a mixed race family. He didn't spend a whole childhood in struggling black neighborhoods. He is not accustomed to being a race activist. He tried to stay out of it too much. I think he could have done a lot more for Black rights. Especially since the big reason all those racial tensions flared up then was in response to the affront of having a black president. Hate groups grew at an alarming rate during his tenure. He should have done more to address that. I get it that he didn't want to be remembered as a Black Rights President. He wanted Health Care Reform.

I also think DT rode in on a wave of anti minority / anti immigrant sentiment, and has exacerbated the problem repeatedly, and he is purposely fanning the flames of racial tension by holding his rally in Tulsa, home of the Black Wall Street Massacre. The reason he is doing this is because he doesn't want Coronavirus to dominate the news. He must feel he polls better as a racist than as an inept leader of the nation with the most Covid.

So how does the country get better? There is a sizeable amount of people who don't believe that racism is as big an issue in the country, in fact there are some (my Father for one) who state that due to affirmative action, quotas and the like... there is actually reverse racism in the country! The whole "why isn't there a White History Month?" mantra.

People like this ask for some evidence of racism and I ask you for it as well and you say "Oh, it's obvious" "of course it happens" "why do you even need to ask?"

That's not a convincing argument.

In terms of fixing it, as you have stated - even Barack Obama didn't make it a priority to fix this problem (Healthcare was a pretty good cause to focus on tho). So I don't think it's fair to say the things that Trump have done are "insufficient." It is something, he's passing laws to help the Black community isn't he? Also Black unemployment is down and poverty is down.

Isn't that a road to helping the problem? Would Biden do any better? Has he in the past? Did Obama do any better? Would Hilary Clinton have done better?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Triplelefthook,

So how does the country get better? There is a sizeable amount of people who don't believe that racism is as big an issue in the country, in fact there are some (my Father for one) who state that due to affirmative action, quotas and the like... there is actually reverse racism in the country! The whole "why isn't there a White History Month?" mantra.

People like this ask for some evidence of racism and I ask you for it as well and you say "Oh, it's obvious" "of course it happens" "why do you even need to ask?"

That's not a convincing argument.

In terms of fixing it, as you have stated - even Barack Obama didn't make it a priority to fix this problem (Healthcare was a pretty good cause to focus on tho). So I don't think it's fair to say the things that Trump have done are "insufficient." It is something, he's passing laws to help the Black community isn't he? Also Black unemployment is down and poverty is down.

Isn't that a road to helping the problem? Would Biden do any better? Has he in the past? Did Obama do any better? Would Hilary Clinton have done better?

The country gets better in the immediate sense by taking measures to drastically reduce police violence against blacks.

For the long term battle we have to continue to look at ways to increase black upward mobility and racial equality. Despite what people like your father think, and I'm sure he's a good man, implicit bias is real and it holds blacks back from achievement. I was interested to hear the other day there seems to be a ceiling for black officers in the military. They make it up to Col OK, and some even make Brigadier General, but few ever get past that point. Nobody thinks it is because they are incapable. The problem is that at this point advancement is largely a popularity contest. If you are not socializing and in the favor of those in power then you are not advancing.

And just look at the relative earnings we talked about earlier. Attitudes are against black advancement and it shows. That evidence enough for me. These people get college degrees and they don't get paid as much as a white high school dropout. That says a lot right there about how much opportunity has been available to them. And what a shame. Our society is cutting itself off from a lot of great talent!

America will be greater if we can utilize all the human capital potential which is currently languishing.

 

[Triplelefthook]

Hello Triplelefthook,



The country gets better in the immediate sense by taking measures to drastically reduce police violence against blacks.

For the long term battle we have to continue to look at ways to increase black upward mobility and racial equality. Despite what people like your father think, and I'm sure he's a good man, implicit bias is real and it holds blacks back from achievement. I was interested to hear the other day there seems to be a ceiling for black officers in the military. They make it up to Col OK, and some even make Brigadier General, but few ever get past that point. Nobody thinks it is because they are incapable. The problem is that at this point advancement is largely a popularity contest. If you are not socializing and in the favor of those in power then you are not advancing.

And just look at the relative earnings we talked about earlier. Attitudes are against black advancement and it shows. That evidence enough for me. These people get college degrees and they don't get paid as much as a white high school dropout. That says a lot right there about how much opportunity has been available to them. And what a shame. Our society is cutting itself off from a lot of great talent!

America will be greater if we can utilize all the human capital potential which is currently languishing.

After the George Floyd killing, my wife changed her facebook status to support the Black Lives Matter movement, her Brother then sent us both a very angry text message. Her brother is a US Marshall, in Washington DC.

He went on and on and on saying that Black people commit more than half of the murders in this country and that the police, him included, get sent to police the higher crime areas. Nothing to do with race, they go where they are needed. They are sent in to deal with crime in high crime areas and it's not his fault if those areas are predominantly black.

He then stated that there is nothing wrong with the police force, apart from a few bad apples, Derek Chauvin being one of them (a poorly trained bad apple he said)

It was an interesting discussion, because I don't think he is lying about his insistence that he gets sent to deal with crime in high crime areas. And he has sent me pictures, videos of times when he is about to approach a suspect and in this country you have NO idea what kind of weapon they might have (legally obtained or not) and the scenarios he paints are terrifying. I can't imagine how violently or brutally i would respond to situations if the consequences were so dire.


In terms of the ability to earn, i think the study you brought up was certainly relevant to inherited wealth among white vs. black people. It didn't show that a white person EARNED more than a black person of equal education levels.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Triplelefthook,

After the George Floyd killing, my wife changed her facebook status to support the Black Lives Matter movement, her Brother then sent us both a very angry text message. Her brother is a US Marshall, in Washington DC.

He went on and on and on saying that Black people commit more than half of the murders in this country and that the police, him included, get sent to police the higher crime areas. Nothing to do with race, they go where they are needed. They are sent in to deal with crime in high crime areas and it's not his fault if those areas are predominantly black.

He then stated that there is nothing wrong with the police force, apart from a few bad apples, Derek Chauvin being one of them (a poorly trained bad apple he said)

It was an interesting discussion, because I don't think he is lying about his insistence that he gets sent to deal with crime in high crime areas. And he has sent me pictures, videos of times when he is about to approach a suspect and in this country you have NO idea what kind of weapon they might have (legally obtained or not) and the scenarios he paints are terrifying. I can't imagine how violently or brutally i would respond to situations if the consequences were so dire.


In terms of the ability to earn, i think the study you brought up was certainly relevant to inherited wealth among white vs. black people. It didn't show that a white person EARNED more than a black person of equal education levels.

It is only logical that people stuck in lousy living conditions with little opportunity and virtually no hope of bettering themselves are going to have more violence and require more policing. That is not because of their color. It is because they have no regular jobs and plenty of time to dismay about their lousy lives.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

After the George Floyd killing, my wife changed her facebook status to support the Black Lives Matter movement, her Brother then sent us both a very angry text message. Her brother is a US Marshall, in Washington DC.

He went on and on and on saying that Black people commit more than half of the murders in this country and that the police, him included, get sent to police the higher crime areas. Nothing to do with race, they go where they are needed. They are sent in to deal with crime in high crime areas and it's not his fault if those areas are predominantly black.

He then stated that there is nothing wrong with the police force, apart from a few bad apples, Derek Chauvin being one of them (a poorly trained bad apple he said)

It was an interesting discussion, because I don't think he is lying about his insistence that he gets sent to deal with crime in high crime areas. And he has sent me pictures, videos of times when he is about to approach a suspect and in this country you have NO idea what kind of weapon they might have (legally obtained or not) and the scenarios he paints are terrifying. I can't imagine how violently or brutally i would respond to situations if the consequences were so dire.


In terms of the ability to earn, i think the study you brought up was certainly relevant to inherited wealth among white vs. black people. It didn't show that a white person EARNED more than a black person of equal education levels.

I understand the sensitivity of all LEOs being painted with the same brush as all the white cops who have illegally stopped, harmed or, worse, killed innocent American citizens because of their skin tone. I also understand that if those same LEOs know of these bad apples and do nothing to stop it, they are just as guilty of the crime.

"Blue Flu" should be treated as a crime. Police and other LEOs have had decades to clean up their own houses. Now American citizens are taking action to clean it for them.

 

[Triplelefthook]

Hello Triplelefthook,



It is only logical that people stuck in lousy living conditions with little opportunity and virtually no hope of bettering themselves are going to have more violence and require more policing. That is not because of their color. It is because they have no regular jobs and plenty of time to dismay about their lousy lives.

Exactly - he says there is nothing to do with their color. So it isn't a race issue and there is no merit to the idea that we need to "drastically reduce police violence against blacks"

There is no excessive violence against blacks, just violence towards the criminal element in the country that, if you are well-trained, isn't an issue

That's his argument and it is what many people say regarding race.

So to heal the country - how do we fix the poverty? Is Biden the right answer? Trump has decreased poverty, passed laws and initiatives that help the black community (not enough according to you, but maybe more than Obama, more than Biden would? Depends on his running mate perhaps), and unemplyment has gone down in the black community under Trump... so is Trump the right way forward?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Triplelefthook,

Exactly - he says there is nothing to do with their color. So it isn't a race issue and there is no merit to the idea that we need to "drastically reduce police violence against blacks"

There is no excessive violence against blacks, just violence towards the criminal element in the country that, if you are well-trained, isn't an issue

That's his argument and it is what many people say regarding race.

Well if he treats everyone the same then he's not the problem. But he doesn't know what goes on with other officers when he's not around.

So to heal the country - how do we fix the poverty? Is Biden the right answer? Trump has decreased poverty, passed laws and initiatives that help the black community (not enough according to you, but maybe more than Obama, more than Biden would? Depends on his running mate perhaps), and unemplyment has gone down in the black community under Trump... so is Trump the right way forward?

Correct - I disagree with that conclusion. I think DT rode the economic momentum that Obama ushered in. I don't think the tax cut for the wealthy helped the economy. The economy was already doing fine. What DT did was to make wealth inequality worse. The federal debt has gone through the roof. That's not helping anything. We don't collect enough revenue to pay our normal expenses, no way we can enact any programs to help the disadvantaged. We don't have room in the budget for it.

I'll tell you what is going to increase upward mobility. Tax the rich heavily, use the money to set up programs that help people succeed. End the legal corruption. That starts locally. We have to elect local leaders who will pass the Anti-Corruption Act locally. Then we move up to statewide. After that, State elections will be subject to it and we will begin sending anti-corruption people to Congress. After we get enough support there, we can pass it at the national level.

The problem is we no longer have a Democracy, but people don't know it. Most people think we have a Democracy, but what we really have is an oligarchy. Congress passes what the rich want, not what the people want. Until that changes, we are stuck. The left and the right each think the other is to blame for our problems, but really it is the oligarchy. The greedy super-rich and powerful (not to be confused with rich people who are not greedy and sincerely wish to help,) the greedy ones are able to exert far too much control over our government. They get their way. We the people don't get our way.

The greedy rich have the left and right fighting against one another and constantly throw gas on that fire. They keep the left and right laser-focused on one another as they rip us all off on everything. It's a grand divide and conquer scheme. We have been divided and conquered. It's like Warren Buffet said. The Class War has already been won by the upper class. They dominate. We the people are the dominated.

 

[Triplelefthook]

Hello Triplelefthook,



Well if he treats everyone the same then he's not the problem. But he doesn't know what goes on with other officers when he's not around.



Correct - I disagree with that conclusion. I think DT rode the economic momentum that Obama ushered in. I don't think the tax cut for the wealthy helped the economy. The economy was already doing fine. What DT did was to make wealth inequality worse. The federal debt has gone through the roof. That's not helping anything. We don't collect enough revenue to pay our normal expenses, no way we can enact any programs to help the disadvantaged. We don't have room in the budget for it.

I'll tell you what is going to increase upward mobility. Tax the rich heavily, use the money to set up programs that help people succeed. End the legal corruption. That starts locally. We have to elect local leaders who will pass the Anti-Corruption Act locally. Then we move up to statewide. After that, State elections will be subject to it and we will begin sending anti-corruption people to Congress. After we get enough support there, we can pass it at the national level.

The problem is we no longer have a Democracy, but people don't know it. Most people think we have a Democracy, but what we really have is an oligarchy. Congress passes what the rich want, not what the people want. Until that changes, we are stuck. The left and the right each think the other is to blame for our problems, but really it is the oligarchy. The greedy super-rich and powerful (not to be confused with rich people who are not greedy and sincerely wish to help,) the greedy ones are able to exert far too much control over our government. They get their way. We the people don't get our way.

The greedy rich have the left and right fighting against one another and constantly throw gas on that fire. They keep the left and right laser-focused on one another as they rip us all off on everything. It's a grand divide and conquer scheme. We have been divided and conquered. It's like Warren Buffet said. The Class War has already been won by the upper class. They dominate. We the people are the dominated.

Well said. I enjoyed the discussion thank you PoliTalker. So do you honestly feel Joe Biden will help heal the racial divide moreso than Donald Trump if elected in November?

I agree about Congress.They pass what the rich want. They are actually all on the same side and only work for the corporations and top 1% in this country. Our news outlets are controlled by those same corporations which is where you get your fake news that puts on this con that Dems and Republicans are going at each other’s throats. The only purpose in that con is to get the people to pick a side and hence actually go at each other’s throats while the corporations and the 1% continue to fuck us out of our rights and our money.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Triplelefthook,

Well said. I enjoyed the discussion thank you PoliTalker. So do you honestly feel Joe Biden will help heal the racial divide moreso than Donald Trump if elected in November?

I agree about Congress.They pass what the rich want. They are actually all on the same side and only work for the corporations and top 1% in this country. Our news outlets are controlled by those same corporations which is where you get your fake news that puts on this con that Dems and Republicans are going at each other’s throats. The only purpose in that con is to get the people to pick a side and hence actually go at each other’s throats while the corporations and the 1% continue to fuck us out of our rights and our money.

Thank you. I also very much enjoy discussing this with you as well, Triplelefthook.

Biden will certainly be better about healing the racial divide. But he won't be much better about ending the Class War, which is a major problem in race relations. At least with Biden we will get far more honest leadership. He's smart. Biden is an experienced politician just like McConnell, Pelosi, all the rest. Savvy politicians go with the political momentum. That's why nearly all the remaining Republicans are bending to DT's will. The one reason is that DT has this support of the people. That's what gives him the power to do the things he does. IF Biden is as smart as I think he is, he will jump onto this race relations bandwagon and ride that power not only into the WH, but much further. Yes, racial relations will improve with Biden, but unless the people demand Democracy with as great a movement as BLM then we will continue to have an oligarchy under Biden.

The challenge for America is to figure out how to ignite the passion for the Class War struggle that equals the passion for the Racial tension. I just don't see a lot of people jumping onto that bandwagon yet. I have spent years saying this and it falls upon deaf ears. We just need more people to emphasize it. Far more people.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Last night I watched "The Gangs of New York" again. The 1863 New York draft riots played a key part of the movie and raised an important part of history. One reason why the Civil War still raises issues is because many of the same problems still exist; Federal law trumping citizen rights, elitism, the use of Federal force against Americans, immigration.

It proved Lincoln's War started the draft; unprecedented in US history.

It pointed out that New York also thought about seceding because the war and loss of business with the South was crippling them.

It raised the ugly head of elitism since the rich could buy their way out of the draft whereas the poor were stuck with going to war.

It used Federal troops to quell the rioting resulting in the deaths of American citizens. The official death toll was 119 but the true number could be over 1200 since many of the dead were Irish immigrants who were considered on the level of African-Americans by Northern racists so leaders didn't give a shit about them. Irish immigrants were pouring in by the thousands and were considered as expendable as yesterday's newspaper.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/draft-riots
The New York Draft Riots occurred in July 1863, when the anger of working-class New Yorkers over a new federal draft law during the Civil War sparked five days of some of the bloodiest and most destructive rioting in U.S. history. Hundreds of people were killed, many more seriously injured, and African-Americans were often the target of the rioters’ violence....

...Facing a dire shortage of manpower in early 1863, Lincoln’s government passed a strict new conscription law, which made all male citizens between 20 and 35 and all unmarried men between 35 and 45 subject to military duty.

Though all eligible men were entered into a lottery, they could buy their way out of harm’s way by hiring a substitute or paying $300 to the government (roughly $5,800 today).

At the time, that sum was the yearly salary for the average American worker, making avoiding the draft impossible for all but the wealthiest of men. Compounding the issue, African Americans were exempt from the draft, as they were not considered citizens.

 

[Nordberg]

Last night I watched "The Gangs of New York" again. The 1863 New York draft riots played a key part of the movie and raised an important part of history. One reason why the Civil War still raises issues is because many of the same problems still exist; Federal law trumping citizen rights, elitism, the use of Federal force against Americans, immigration.

It proved Lincoln's War started the draft; unprecedented in US history.

It pointed out that New York also thought about seceding because the war and loss of business with the South was crippling them.

It raised the ugly head of elitism since the rich could buy their way out of the draft whereas the poor were stuck with going to war.

It used Federal troops to quell the rioting resulting in the deaths of American citizens. The official death toll was 119 but the true number could be over 1200 since many of the dead were Irish immigrants who were considered on the level of African-Americans by Northern racists so leaders didn't give a shit about them. Irish immigrants were pouring in by the thousands and were considered as expendable as yesterday's newspaper.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/draft-riots
The New York Draft Riots occurred in July 1863, when the anger of working-class New Yorkers over a new federal draft law during the Civil War sparked five days of some of the bloodiest and most destructive rioting in U.S. history. Hundreds of people were killed, many more seriously injured, and African-Americans were often the target of the rioters’ violence....

...Facing a dire shortage of manpower in early 1863, Lincoln’s government passed a strict new conscription law, which made all male citizens between 20 and 35 and all unmarried men between 35 and 45 subject to military duty.

Though all eligible men were entered into a lottery, they could buy their way out of harm’s way by hiring a substitute or paying $300 to the government (roughly $5,800 today).

At the time, that sum was the yearly salary for the average American worker, making avoiding the draft impossible for all but the wealthiest of men. Compounding the issue, African Americans were exempt from the draft, as they were not considered citizens.

It was during slavery. The blacks they brought over to work in farms were obviously not citizens. How could that be? They had no qualifications. The next generation, their kids, should have been declared citizens immediately.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It was during slavery. The blacks they brought over to work in farms were obviously not citizens. How could that be? They had no qualifications. The next generation, their kids, should have been declared citizens immediately.

The point being that ideals and circumstances of the time where quite different. It's silly for someone to hold the South to 21st Century standard then give New York a pass because "it was the times". Note that New York was on the verge of succeeding too for the same reason as other states: Their economic welfare.