When Will We Recover From The Civil War? Now Is The Time.

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
Soooo, according to you, because one state, South Carolina, fired on a Federal fort but didn't kill anyone, that's justification to invade the South and kick off a war costing the lives of 2% of the American population?

Since you just did by putting the entire blame of the Civil War on the South, it looks like we're not beyone labels.
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The reason the Civil War began was because of slavery. Slavery is wrong, but the southern economy was dependent on it. The south was locked into a technology freeze, stuck on using slaves to produce cotton and tobacco as the north boomed with a new industrial age, jobs and a growing economy. Lincoln's new Republican party was willing to accept slavery in the south, but was not willing to allow it to grow into the new western states which were being formed and added to the country. People wanted to move to those states out of the north in search of their own land to work as they pleased. If those states were allowed to become slave states then that killed opportunity for all but slave owners. Slavery killed the economy wherever it went. Employers did not have to pay wages for labor when they could simply buy slaves instead.

The north and the south argued over whether each new state should be a slave state or a free state. A precarious balance existed for some time before the Civil War and the number of states remained equal between slave and free. This ensured that Congress would not favor either system. But eventually more free states were added than slave states. That meant that Congress would go against the south. And the imbalance was getting worse for the south. The south felt it was in a no-win situation. The south felt forced to secede and start their own nation. Even then it was hoped it would not lead to war. But when the south began seizing union federal property under military action, that was going too far.

The south initially had the better army. They had standing militias for the purpose of hunting down escaped slaves. They were better trained and equipped. They did well in the beginning of the war, but they couldn't hope to win. The north was already way more powerful. When the south attacked the north it was the same sort of madness as when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. IF they couldn't immediately go and crush the north, they had no hope of prevailing in a protracted war.

Racism arose out of guilt over simply being wrong about believing slavery was OK, and being wrong when they thought they could beat the USA. Southern whites took their guilt out on blacks, and have been doing so ever since. It's time for racists to finally admit they were wrong and put it all behind us, let people of any color have the same chance at success as anybody else.

If whites were really smarter than blacks they never would have interbred with them. That has completely blurred the lines of race and ensured that every individual today has the same chance at birth of being just as smart as anybody else. Economic success has nothing to do with what color an individual is at birth and everything to do with the economic power of the parents they are born to. Being born into a family line of cross-generational poverty is the greatest determining factor in poverty in the USA. From Jim Crow to voter repression to red lining to the forced family separation of the Great Society, the odds are stacked against a poor black kid and for a rich white kid.

And it's sad because this sickness in America cuts us off from vast potential human capital. We will be able to accomplish so much more when we finally put racism behind us.

We have got to end the Civil War that still exists in hearts and minds, and in institutions such as improperly trained and commanded police forces.

America will be better for it.

Time's up.
 
anonymoose said:
No . You seem to be projecting.
White death by cop is 84.3%, black death by cop is 13.6% of total deaths. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/ That somewhat correlates to the percentage of population but if you're white you're slightly more likely to die by cop. Male death by cop is 97.4% yet males make up about half the population. You obviously don't understand statistics. Cops need to start blowing away less males and more females for more equality between the sexes.
Correct, which is why I didn't mention the price of tea in China.
Many fatalities are unavoidable or are consistent with how police are trained. Personally I'd like to see the cops have immediate access to the perps' record and if they are repeat offenders of violent crime, summary execution is in order. Cop fucks up, execute the cop.
the minimum is negligent homicide by the cops, maximum is 2nd degree murder.

Nothing. It has to do with the OP.
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Thanks! I agree with a good portion of your thoughts on this.
 
PoliTalker said:
I don't get the idea of 'defund the police.'

How are we going to have law and order without police?

Are we to expect better policing if we spend less on training police?

Are lower-paid cops expected to do better work?

If we don't have police we should expect rampant traffic infractions, risk-taking and highway deaths. I don't see how that helps.

Without police, robberies, thefts and burglaries would increase.

Criminals would feel less restrained from carrying out ill will.

Policing needs to be better, more attuned to the needs of society, not defunded.

Take away some of the militarization and replace it with really smart training focused on building the trust of the community. That would make more sense to me.
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I am agnostic about it, but I believe the idea generally is to dismantle existing police departments which are perceived to be corrupt and militarized and replace them with police departments which are accountable to the citizens of the community
 
Cypress said:
I am agnostic about it, but I believe the idea generally is to dismantle existing police departments which are perceived to be corrupt and militarized and replace them with police departments which are accountable to the citizens of the community
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So you want to fire all cops and replace them?
(keeping in mind most cops are good)
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,



The reason the Civil War began was because of slavery. Slavery is wrong, but the southern economy was dependent on it. The south was locked into a technology freeze, stuck on using slaves to produce cotton and tobacco as the north boomed with a new industrial age, jobs and a growing economy. Lincoln's new Republican party was willing to accept slavery in the south, but was not willing to allow it to grow into the new western states which were being formed and added to the country. People wanted to move to those states out of the north in search of their own land to work as they pleased. If those states were allowed to become slave states then that killed opportunity for all but slave owners. Slavery killed the economy wherever it went. Employers did not have to pay wages for labor when they could simply buy slaves instead.

The north and the south argued over whether each new state should be a slave state or a free state. A precarious balance existed for some time before the Civil War and the number of states remained equal between slave and free. This ensured that Congress would not favor either system. But eventually more free states were added than slave states. That meant that Congress would go against the south. And the imbalance was getting worse for the south. The south felt it was in a no-win situation. The south felt forced to secede and start their own nation. Even then it was hoped it would not lead to war. But when the south began seizing union federal property under military action, that was going too far.

The south initially had the better army. They had standing militias for the purpose of hunting down escaped slaves. They were better trained and equipped. They did well in the beginning of the war, but they couldn't hope to win. The north was already way more powerful. When the south attacked the north it was the same sort of madness as when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. IF they couldn't immediately go and crush the north, they had no hope of prevailing in a protracted war.

Racism arose out of guilt over simply being wrong about believing slavery was OK, and being wrong when they thought they could beat the USA. Southern whites took their guilt out on blacks, and have been doing so ever since. It's time for racists to finally admit they were wrong and put it all behind us, let people of any color have the same chance at success as anybody else.

If whites were really smarter than blacks they never would have interbred with them. That has completely blurred the lines of race and ensured that every individual today has the same chance at birth of being just as smart as anybody else. Economic success has nothing to do with what color an individual is at birth and everything to do with the economic power of the parents they are born to. Being born into a family line of cross-generational poverty is the greatest determining factor in poverty in the USA. From Jim Crow to voter repression to red lining to the forced family separation of the Great Society, the odds are stacked against a poor black kid and for a rich white kid.

And it's sad because this sickness in America cuts us off from vast potential human capital. We will be able to accomplish so much more when we finally put racism behind us.

We have got to end the Civil War that still exists in hearts and minds, and in institutions such as improperly trained and commanded police forces.

America will be better for it.

Time's up.
Click to expand...

Yes, slavery is wrong, but you said the Civil War began because South Carolina shot at some Feds and that Lincoln was justified to invade the South in a war killing 2% of the population.

As a side note, notice how upset some people were at the prospect of COVID killing 3% of the population? That's a disease. An accident of nature. Lincoln invading the South was intentional.

usa.gif

va1862.gif
 
Cypress said:
I am agnostic about it, but I believe the idea generally is to dismantle existing police departments which are perceived to be corrupt and militarized and replace them with police departments which are accountable to the citizens of the community
Click to expand...

There is a very good, long article about this in this week's Economist. The training of the police as 'warriors', the grotesque over-arming of so many with advanced military weapons, the huge power of the police unions to prevent expulsion of racist killers and the way in which lawyers are afraid to bring cases against them and risk all future police co-operation are all mentioned, as is the tremendous success of the town called Camden, where they reorganised them to be useful instead of murderous.

Civil Wars hang on: a man taught history in Irish pubs had an article in the i today wanting to get rid of the statue of the Lord Protector, which it took a long struggle to get put up against heavy tory bullying, but I don't think any group is really offended by it. I think the great trick is never to keep on fighting old wars. There seems to be general agreement in our Senedd that we should get rid of any statues, busts and whatever of such of our people as held office in slavish English possessions, which is our right, but we wouldn't want even decent ones if a minority objected, I think. The point is that a sizeable minority in the South objects to statues of racists, not that they are 'enemies'. Are there any statues of Lincoln, Grant or Sherman in the South?
 
Hello T. A. Gardner,

T. A. Gardner said:
Okay so how would you accomplish that?

Me? I'd eliminate all official racial references and laws currently in effect. This would mean there'd be no boxes like "What is your race: White / Caucasian, Black / African, Asian-Pacific Islander, etc." Gone. there's no need for the government or an employer to know.

I'd change school curricula to one that was America-centric. That is it would teach students they are American, not some hyphenated American. The hyphenated version would be seen as racist and wrong. You would no longer say "I'm Irish-American or I'm African-American..." instead it would be "I'm an American." We'd teach students American. That is English as Americans speak and write it. It might be called American-English some places, but in America, it's American.
We'd teach our kids American history and social norms not some globalist version. They can learn that later on in high school and college.

It wouldn't be to teach our children to be intolerant of other nations or races, but rather that they have a unique and uniting quality in being an American.

While we probably cannot eradicate all racism, we can and should immediately eradicate all government sanctioned and institutionalized racism like Affirmative Action. When someone talks about White Privilege or African-American studies, a person should look at the speaker with genuine curiosity and wonder what the hell they're talking about. Get rid of that stuff entirely.
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I like part of your idea. I agree that education can play a huge role. Kids in school totally need to be learning how unique and special it is to be American. They need to understand how we came about and what the whole point of this great experiment in democracy is, that no matter what background we may have come from that we are all linked together now in a shared future.

My view diverges from yours when it comes to personal heritage, which is so diverse. Our diversity is our combined heritage and our strength. It should be celebrated. America is special because we are a combination of so many backgrounds and we have all come together in various ways to throw our futures into one. We are a unique nation comprised of unique individuals. No two are alike. This is what makes America great because we draw on so many roots. This is our strength. We have insight and feeling for all races and all histories. Every individual contributes their part to make the whole greater.

It is Diversity which Makes America Great. That is to be celebrated, not hidden. We are so many different parts, and together we make a stronger whole. If we had just one ethnicity it would limit us, hold us back. Fortunately we have parts of nearly all ethnicities on Earth. America is the great mixing bowl. We should not fear our various roots but celebrate them. We do not need to try to ignore or erase our various histories but welcome the unique qualities of each.

If we didn't have the Native Indian Code Talkers in WWII, our war effort would have been compromised. That allowed us to communicate without having our vital plans detected by an enemy. If we had tried to create just one ethnicity called 'American,' and had discouraged the celebration of native tongues and cultures, we would not have had the Code Talkers. And that is just one very small example of how our diversity is our strength.

One of the things I like about America is sampling the foods of different cultures. There is no one way of preparing food called "American food." Food preparation is limitless. I have not traveled outside the USA much but I have a hard time imagining an 'American Food Restaurant' in a foreign nation meaning one style, because there are so many ways we fix food here. I think it's great to have so much variety. You can have Italian food, Vietnamese food, Mexican food, Chinese food, French, German, Thai, English, Soul Food, Greek, Caribbean, Cuban, and so on. Many different varieties. Almost endless variety. All right here in the USA. I love it.

I don't want to eradicate that. It is fabulous that we have so many different subcultures. This is a good thing. It should not be seen as a problem but a wonderful strength. There is nothing to fear from various cultures and languages. There is fantastic beauty to be seen. The amazing way in which our cultures combine is fascinating. Like colors on a palette. America is definitely a special place.

Puerto Ricans are Americans. They speak Spanish. Spanish is a beautiful language. What we have done to that island is a shame. It could be a fantastic vacation get-away place, like a golden goose, a shining gem in the sparkling Caribbean Sea. But instead we have made it impossible for them to realize the vast potential of the island. What a shame. We don't want that kind of approach for all our various cultures. That would be a terrible mistake and a waste of incredible potential.

Yes, we need to teach our young people all about America, how we came to be, how we fit into the world, how the task of building this great nation is never complete, how much there is yet to do, how we should never limit ourselves, how beautiful we are because of our many heritages, and how far we can go when we work together and celebrate what we have and who we are.
 
Hello Cypress,

Cypress said:
I am agnostic about it, but I believe the idea generally is to dismantle existing police departments which are perceived to be corrupt and militarized and replace them with police departments which are accountable to the citizens of the community
Click to expand...

That sounds good. So why don't they call it that? 'Defund the police' sounds like eliminating police.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
Yes, slavery is wrong, but you said the Civil War began because South Carolina shot at some Feds and that Lincoln was justified to invade the South in a war killing 2% of the population.

As a side note, notice how upset some people were at the prospect of COVID killing 3% of the population? That's a disease. An accident of nature. Lincoln invading the South was intentional.

usa.gif

va1862.gif
Click to expand...

I said that was HOW the Civil War began.

The reason the Civil War began was because of slavery. Slavery is wrong, but the southern economy was dependent on it. The south was locked into a technology freeze, stuck on using slaves to produce cotton and tobacco as the north boomed with a new industrial age, jobs and a growing economy. Lincoln's new Republican party was willing to accept slavery in the south, but was not willing to allow it to grow into the new western states which were being formed and added to the country. People wanted to move to those states out of the north in search of their own land to work as they pleased. If those states were allowed to become slave states then that killed opportunity for all but slave owners. Slavery killed the economy wherever it went. Employers did not have to pay wages for labor when they could simply buy slaves instead.

The north and the south argued over whether each new state should be a slave state or a free state. A precarious balance existed for some time before the Civil War and the number of states remained equal between slave and free. This ensured that Congress would not favor either system. But eventually more free states were added than slave states. That meant that Congress would go against the south. And the imbalance was getting worse for the south. The south felt it was in a no-win situation. The south felt forced to secede and start their own nation. Even then it was hoped it would not lead to war. But when the south began seizing union federal property under military action, that was going too far.

Slavery was wrong. It made a few very rich but it wrecked the economy surrounding it. There were no jobs. Business tycoons didn't have to hire labor, they just bought it. The economy of the south was held back as the north progressed. The dichotomy was not sustainable. When it became apparent the north was far stronger than the south, the south tried to break away and destroy the union. That hurt the north, so the north fixed the problem. The messy way that happened was because of the intransigence of the south.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
When Yankees Americans stop calling Southerners stupid, racist and traitors, maybe the wounds of the War of Northern Aggression would begin to heal.

Note where the major battles took place:
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Southerners are stupid, and the first battle of the war took place at an American fort.
 
I don't see how anybody can defend what the south did leading up to the Civil War. The south committed economic suicide. It was an example of how extreme wealth inequality fails.

What the south created with their slave economy was not capitalism. It was more like feudalism. The slave owners were the lords and the slaves were the serfs. Slave owners were free to do anything they liked, and they had the ultimate power of great wealth to do it with. The slaves had existence. That's it. They had no freedom. They couldn't build a life, couldn't make decisions for themselves. They were at the complete mercy of the lord slave owners. Some were treated well. Others were treated horribly. There were no limits. Slave families were cruelly broken up and had no say in the matter. After reconstruction, many former slaves wandered far and wide seeking family members. Many of which were never found.

Since the slave economy was not capitalism, it could not compete with the more capitalist north. The north flourished and grew. The south was held back, frozen into this one model of how to create wealth, which was limited to very few. The Civil War was all but inevitable. It was caused by the greed and egos of the south. The slave holding south was just as bound to fail as the feudalism model it followed. The only unknown was precisely how and when the war would happen.

We need to educate everybody what a huge mistake the slave economy was, how not great the plantation owners were, and stop glorifying the slave-holding southern culture. We need to collectively realize what a giant mistake it all was, put it behind us, and move forward. We have been held back by that for far too long.
 
PoliTalker said:
We never recovered from the Civil War.

The official war ended, and then immediately the fight went into a social struggle to repress blacks and glorify the Confederacy. That has never ended, and even though the people who began this struggle are all dead, we are still stuck with the hatred which was hatched then in an effort to justify southern slavery and the decision to launch into a totally needless, hurtful, and deadly war over nothing but stupid hatred. Racism is a stain that has marred the American cause of freedom and human rights.

Now we have our opportunity to forward our complete recovery from the Civil War.

And it came in the strangest way.

An oppressive hateful president, an insensitive cop, a black victim of police brutality.

This has become a moment.

It has become a movement. This movement has spread far beyond the American borders. There are Floyd protests all over the WORLD!

It is a chance to heal.
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You are correct, Democrats never recovered from the civil war. Democrat-run police departments across the Nation are as racist as ever. It is time for Democrats to rise above their racist roots, and join civilized society.
 
Penderyn said:
There is a very good, long article about this in this week's Economist. The training of the police as 'warriors', the grotesque over-arming of so many with advanced military weapons, the huge power of the police unions to prevent expulsion of racist killers and the way in which lawyers are afraid to bring cases against them and risk all future police co-operation are all mentioned, as is the tremendous success of the town called Camden, where they reorganised them to be useful instead of murderous.

Civil Wars hang on: a man taught history in Irish pubs had an article in the i today wanting to get rid of the statue of the Lord Protector, which it took a long struggle to get put up against heavy tory bullying, but I don't think any group is really offended by it. I think the great trick is never to keep on fighting old wars. There seems to be general agreement in our Senedd that we should get rid of any statues, busts and whatever of such of our people as held office in slavish English possessions, which is our right, but we wouldn't want even decent ones if a minority objected, I think. The point is that a sizeable minority in the South objects to statues of racists, not that they are 'enemies'. Are there any statues of Lincoln, Grant or Sherman in the South?
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Thanks.

I seriously doubt Lincoln or Grant have any prominent public memorials in the South

Lincoln and the American army should be saluted for defeating a rebel insurrection bent on defending a slave economy, and thus preserving the Union.

But to me, the real heroes of that era were the abolitionist Fredrick Douglas, Sojourner Truth, et al.

If the South really wanted to come to terms with their history of chattel slavery, they would replace all public monuments of rebel soldiers who fought to defend slavery, with memorials to prominent abolitionists
 
Hello Geeko Sportivo,

Geeko Sportivo said:
And [what] does Obama have to do with anything regarding ... settling the Civil War?
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President Obama inflamed the haters who are hung up on race simply by becoming president. There is this mass denial that the slave-holding southern economy was a huge mistake and a failure, as exemplified by the way the northern economy flourished as the southern economy was limited by it's repressive model that did not allow many individuals to excel. That mass denial has morphed into today's racism. Blacks are blamed for the problems in our current society that were actually caused by slavery. The inequality and the limited economic success is not because blacks are 'stupid,' it is because slavery made other jobs and economic growth impossible.

Racists need to admit that the economic model of the old south was a failure and stop taking that failure out on the descendants of those repressed by hatred of blacks which is really self-hatred for being descendant from the cruelty of slavery.

Racists, it is OK to admit the old south was a mistake. You do not have to keep the self-loathing of the slave-owners alive in your own hatred. There is a far better world without hatred. Your hatred is holding you back. It holds our country back. The rest of us are tired of it. Let it go. It is time to move forward to a brighter future.
 
Cypress said:
Thanks.

I seriously doubt Lincoln or Grant have any prominent public memorials in the South

Lincoln and the American army should be saluted for defeating a rebel army bent on defending a slave economy, and preserving the Unis, on.

But to me, the real heroes of that era were the abolitionist Fredrick Douglas, Sojourner Truth, et al.

If the South really wanted to come to terms with their history of chattel slavery, they would replace all public monuments of rebel soldiers who fought to defend slavery, with memorials to prominent abolitionists
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Right. And, fair play, let's not forget the Quakers (can't remember the name of the key man) and martyrs like John Brown.
 
Hello Nordberg,

Nordberg said:
Not at all. If you steal from a company over a long time, you pay restitution. That would be fair. Return to them some of what you stole.
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I am so torn about the idea of reparations. On one hand it only seems right to pay for what was taken. Why wouldn't we want to do that?

Well, because it could go quite badly. That's why.

The people alive today didn't personally take anything or have anything taken from them.

If large sums of money were given to the impoverished who have no ability to manage wealth what is the most likely outcome?

Would it be expected that they would invest these funds wisely and build wealth?

Or is it more likely that the money would be spent on instant gratification and eventually recaptured by the wealthy and powerful.

And that would give them their 'I told you so' moment.

Old standing white wealth which was generated from slavery should be taken from the current holders in large amounts but maybe it should be used for programs to help impoverished descendants of slaves learn to build wealth themselves.

Give a man a fish or teach him to fish, eh?
 
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