I am not invited.....I will be tossed overboard along the way.
Why libertarianism should be outlawed
- Thread starter MarcusA
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I am not invited.....I will be tossed overboard along the way.
I would have to see the context of this discussion, but Benjamin's statement might have been in reference to even white citizens of London identifying more as "citizens of the world" rather than of the UK. Children of immigrants do often assimilate somewhat, but there often is a matter of alienation that leads to many of them not really identifying with their parents' culture or with the mainstream culture that they grew up with. Also, like any democratic society, if an immigrant group becomes large enough, they cause the society itself to change.
For example, the large amount of Italians and Irish that came to the Northeast U.S. changed the mainstream culture there over time. Originally, the Northeast was very Anglo, but after several waves of immigration in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the overall culture was quite different.
Assimilation is a 2-way street, and acknowledging that isn't indicative of white nationalism.
Least religious doesn't mean the affected societies abandoned all religious values. Sweden is very secular, for example, but culturally, they still have Christian values. And technically, you could say they had pagan values before the arrival of Christianity. They incorporated those pagan values into the version of Christianity they eventually followed.
No society maintains its values in a cultural or historical vacuum, and since religion is ubiquitous, it's extremely difficult to make the argument that a given society developed its morals independent of religion.
Most advanced societies are based on logic, religious or otherwise. However, logic alone doesn't usually dictate values or morals. Even secular humanism, for example, borrows a lot from Christianity. It would likely be a somewhat different code of ethics if it had been created in an Islamic or Buddhist cultural context, for example.
Peterson does argue in favor of meritocratic hierarchies, but his reason for support of monogamy has to do with multiple factors.
1) Polygamous societies usually have serious issues with social unrest. In a lot of the Islamic World, for example, polygamy is a common thing, and it results in a surplus of young, disaffected single men. These same men are prone to being manipulated by religious radicals.
2) Hypergamy is a normal and evolutionarily encouraged practice that women engage in, and in polygamous societies, hypergamy becomes magnified in its effects.
There are other people that have pointed out the issues with polyamorous societies, like Mona Charen. There are numerous studies that have shown that women are often less happy today in American culture than women of previous generations, due to the social issues created by polyamory. A lot of the evidence points to monogamy benefiting women more than men, and polyamory benefiting men more than women.
One of the interesting conundrums that modern Western women face is that, the more successful they are, the harder it is for them to engage in hypergamy. As the education gap grows between women and men in the West, this issue will only increase.
Even most feminist women aren't interested in settling for a man of lower social or economic standing, but if current trends continue, many will have to, unless they want to remain single indefinitely (or are interested in other women).
All this being said, I'm not saying that hypergamy has to remain the norm for women, but it's a hard thing to undo. This tendency for women has existed for millennia. Social changes can only accomplish so much in terms of changing human nature and innate sex characteristics.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But Benjamin didn't say they don't identify as British or English/Welsh/Scots-Irish/Scottish, he said they don't identify as White British. And when Vaush pressed him on why he's saying "White British" if this isn't about race, he got the run around. I'd recommend watching the debate. I know Vaush can be annoying since he's so rude, but it you enjoy watching someone get caught in a lie and dragged for it, his videos are pretty fun.
Benjamin is saying that the UK is being destroyed by immigration and the reason is because the immigrants are non-white. And that's why there are so few "White British" people in London now.
But they really don't have Christian or Pagan values anymore. And even if we're going to say they have a few that have been incorporated into their modern culture, they still have far less religious values than countries that are religious but doing far worse. If Peterson was right, then countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia would be doing much better than Scandinavia.
And Peterson didn't just say people need values based on mythology, he said people need to believe in something higher.
I don't know many Secular Humanists who think gay people should be stoned to death, women need to sleep on the floor during period time, or it's ok to own slaves.
I agree that religion influences society, but in the West, secular philosophy has changed Christianity, not the other way around. Really, the only Christian values still common in the West are ones that don't contradict western values. And it's the same thing with Islam in Albania.
So sure, religion plays a role. But it's mostly when it comes to art and imagery. When it comes to law and philosophy, religious influence is extremely small, and we're better off for that.
There are definitely arguments to be made for monogamy being better than polygamy. The reason I think Peterson is just sucking up to the Alt-Right is because he's inconsistent here. He supports monogamy because when there are enough marriages to go around, society does better. So fuck the strong getting all the women they want, fuck being "top lobster," let's just do what's best for society and try to create a situation where as many people as possible win. But then why doesn't he support Social Democracy? Why does he just dismiss liberal economics as SJW wokeness? It's because enforced monogamy is popular on the Alt-Right, but Social Democracy is not because it's considered left-wing.
But isn't that basically the same argument you make regarding the West? I thought you were against non-white immigration in the U.S. and Europe.
Sweden is largely secular humanist, which is Christian in values. Forgiveness and tolerance are part of Christian thought. Note the difference in how minorities are viewed in the West vs. outside of it. That largely is a matter of Christian values. Progressivism itself draws largely from Christianity, which is why it's rather ironic that so many progressives lean against Christianity.
Western values are partially defined by Christianity. If the West had been mostly Islamic at the time, the Enlightenment would have gone in a very different direction.
I can see how it would look contradictory on the surface, but there's more to it than that. Socially enforced monogamy (not government enforced, like some have tried to mischaracterize) does have the benefits you reference. Progressive economics go a lot further toward trying to equalize outcomes.
Peterson has stated his support for equal opportunity. What he's against is this focus on equal outcomes. Many progressives claim that they want policies aimed at equal opportunity, but then they still describe differences in outcomes in terms of "systemic oppression." The reality of the matter is that individuals differ greatly in potential. So, even if you make things as equal as possible for opportunity, some will succeed while others fail. No amount of government intervention will change that.
A lot of the "equity" discussion downplays the importance of personal responsibility while overstating systemic biases. So when you have policies put into place that literally favor one race over another in order to meet some measure of supposed equality, it essentially assumes certain people are less capable of making better decisions.
We see a similar pattern with policies aimed at promoting women faster and more often than men. It basically assumes that women are less capable and need intervention for success.
Socially enforced monogamy is pretty minor in terms of pushing equality. What the left is asking for on economics is pretty far at this point. For example, reparations would literally be race-based stipends for people. Taxing the wealthy as highly as many on the left have proposed would just result in a lot more offshoring of income while making things much harder on small business owners. Things like carbon taxes would do little to help the environment but would line the pockets of politicians quite effectively.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying this is why people call him Alt-Right, especially when combined with his sexism, transphobia, and Trumpcuckery. I've also been called Alt-Right, simply for being a Nationalist. And while that's wrong, I understand why people would think that. It doesn't make someone an SJW for assuming that.
The Christianity you're describing is only like this because it was forced to change after the Enlightenment. Much like Islam was forced to change in Albania. If we're going by the Bible or the historical Catholic Church, then Christianity is way more similar to Islam as it's still practiced in the Middle East.
Just look at how women and gays are viewed in Europe as opposed to how they're viewed in Sub-Saharan Africa. Africans take the real Christian view of the Bible and tradition, while Europeans take the logical view and then sometimes ascribe that to Christianity. They'll get around the homophobia of the Bible by saying that God loves everyone. He's sending most of us to Hell, but sure, he loves all of us.
But do Progressive really want equal outcomes? We don't have any real communist movement in the West. Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat who just wants health care to be affordable and he's considered far-left in America. Peterson argues against a straw man created by the Right.
And no Conservative wants equal opportunity. What they want is to maintain our system of class privilege. People have explained this to Peterson before, but it just goes in one ear and out the other because he doesn't actually care about equal opportunity.
If Peterson just stuck with that argument, it would be understandable. But when people bring up that the poor don't have nearly as many opportunities as the rich, Peterson just dances around the topic and goes to his "top lobster" crap.
What makes him sexist?
The reason why Christianity is often extreme in Africa is because of extremist missionaries, but that's another discussion altogether.
Most conservatives I speak with just want the market to be freer in most respects. That's not class privilege -- that's a matter of keeping the government from playing favorites.
Of the economic discussions I've seen with Peterson, I don't see that much about lobsters or hierarchy, but he does admittedly have a lot of material. I've only read/listened to a small portion of it. Most of what I've seen from him doesn't even discuss economics, however.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
He's part of the cringy "Feminism is Cancer" crowd. Which would be ok if he had a narrow definition of Feminism like I do, but he thinks ANYONE who speaks out against sexism is a Feminist. He's even against the #MeToo movement. How much of an asshole does one have to be to oppose rape victims speaking out against rape culture because that's Feminist?
He also thinks that women entering politics is linked with the decline of society which is a common Alt-Right stance.
Even if we're ignoring the extremist parts, like genital mutilation, Christianity is still practiced in Africa and Latin America in a way that is much similar to Medieval Europe than to today's Europe.
For most of history, the Catholic Church said you can only get to Heaven by being a member of the Church. Eventually, because the Enlightenment redefined morality and what it means to be a good person, this view changed. Most Christians, especially in Europe, will say that anyone can get to Heaven as long as they're a good person.
In Africa and Latin America, they still view people who aren't Christian as evil. This is finally starting to change, but only because the entire world is becoming globalized and westernized.
First of all, by having a totally free market, the rich are able to economically oppress the poor through things like price gouging. They're also able to create regulations through campaign finance to make the playing field even more bias.
Secondly, Conservatives only seem to care about regulations when it comes to regulation that helps the poor. They don't care about regulations set by the 1% to make themselves richer.
By letting the 1% get too rich, we've given them the power to bribe any politician into playing favorites. Conservatives will say they oppose "Crony Capitalism," but then continue supporting the policies that lead to Crony Capitalism.
Did I ever show you this comic? It perfectly explains how, by not actively creating a level playing field, we're allowing a system where we don't have equality of opportunity.
https://9gag.com/gag/aPD9x7K
The problem with the MeToo movement is that it became a platform for people pushing the narrative that accusers should always be believed. Granted, that narrative suspiciously evaporated once several liberal figures (like Biden) started getting accused recently.
The original intent of MeToo might have been noble, but it clearly became a political agenda, particularly with the ridiculousness of Christine Blasey Ford's narrative.
As far as feminism goes, I would say the most vocal elements of feminism today are cancerous to society, because of their extremism. That being said, I wouldn't take it as far as to say that political involvement by women is a bad thing. If Benjamin is saying that, I can understand the sexism claim.
Well, Protestantism was the first major change with Christianity. A lot of the changes you're referring to happened with Martin Luther. He successfully countered the idea that you had to be part of the Catholic Church to get salvation. Later Protestant figures pushed for several other changes, and many of them were incorporated into Enlightenment thinking.
All that aside, believing that anyone can get into heaven if they're a good person contradicts the premise of Christianity itself. It begs the question, "Why be Christian then?" Mormons actually believe that anyone who is a good person can get into heaven, but they also believe that there are different tiers of heaven and that Mormons usually reach the top tier. That at least provides some rationale for being Mormon.
Any Christian that believes anyone good in character can reach heaven with or without faith should be asked why faith is even important.
Well, there are several parts of Africa where people who aren't Muslim are viewed as evil as well.
Why not push for ending most regulation in general? The regulations you're talking about are the majority of regulations in place currently, and this is a result of both parties being corrupted by lobbyism. The more you get government involved, the more you're going to see government play favorites. There isn't really a way around that. We even see this in the most progressive European countries.
There is certainly some of that, but again, that's bipartisan in nature. Lobbyists buy members of both parties. The wealth of the rich itself isn't the problem, however. How much the 1% makes has no bearing on how much the average worker makes, because economies aren't fixed in resources. There are plenty of nations with low wealth disparity that still suffer massive poverty, just like there are plenty of nations with high wealth disparity but have high overall qualities of life for the average person.
Therein lies the debate. Lots of progressive policies haven't actually accomplished what they intended to. The War on Poverty overall had a very destructive effect on black families, for example.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
My dude. The myth of the Right, that #MeToo was just created to go after Conservatives and it was dropped as soon as it started eating its own, is total bullshit. Two of the first big names to be taken down were Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. The movement was never political.
As for Biden, the truth is he's probably innocent. And most people in the movement don't blindly believe women. Some SJW Feminists might believe ANY woman who makes a claim, but most of us reject claims without evidence.
Usually when someone says Feminism is cancer, I reserve judgement, because maybe they are just talking about Feminists like Big Red. But because he also says women involved in politics destroy society, I'm going to assume by "Feminism," he means women's rights.
Martin Luther was hugely important in setting the stage for the Enlightenment. He pretty much created the idea that anyone can interpret the Bible, while the Catholic Church was saying only the Church could understand the scripture and would sometimes even discourage ordinary people from reading the Bible for themselves. So yeah, big props to Herr Luther for getting people to start thinking for themselves, thus making the Enlightenment possible.
But during the time between the Reformation and the Enlightenment, Christianity was still much like it was during the Middle Ages. Even Protestantism was super restrictive and was pretty much just Catholicism without the Church. Protestantism made the Enlightenment possible, but then the Enlightenment changed Protestantism and, eventually, Catholicism.
And you're right, believing people of any religion can get to Heaven does contradict Christianity. That's a major element of how Christianity has been secularized by the Enlightenment in a way even Martin Luther would hate. That's what I mean when I say Christianity was forced to change.
Of course, because the Enlightenment happened outside of Africa. But if you look at Albanian Islam, it's pretty much just like Western Christianity. And when white Muslims grow up in Europe or America, they live like typical white people because they're racially similar.
This is why I'm not worried about white Muslims. I much rather they continue immigrating to Europe, rather than we switch white Muslims for black Christians.
Because ending regulation leads to wealth pooling within the 1%, which makes the 1% so powerful that they can create regulations to help themselves while having Tea Party dipshits talk about ending regulations. Ending regulation is a pipe dream that will never happen. And as I've mentioned before, when the 1% gets too strong, it often leads to even bigger government than when we just have some regulations to level the playing field. True "small government" types should support welfare policies, because that causes less government than lolbert Capitalism.
There's been no War on Poverty. There have been progressive policies here and there, but for the most part, no action has been taken. The welfare that poor people get is just enough to keep them alive, not enough to actually pull themselves up. The amount that people on disability get is especially terrible.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
MarcusA should be outlawed.
Lightbringer
Loves Me Some Souls
Outlaw Libertarianism? Alright, but that opens the door to outlawing other things, like Marxism. Fine, let's play this game.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think MeToo is bullshit. Granted, there are other events that led up to the lack of credibility in the MeToo movement. Emma Sulkowicz turned out to be a complete fraud and helped to demonstrate how ridiculous the campus tribunal system is. Obama made a huge mistake by having the DOJ get involved in campus rape issues and by having verbal sexual harassment treated the same way as sexual assault in terms of severity. By the time that MeToo became a thing, we had a social environment that made false accusations rather easy to put forward.
So it's basically fake Christianity for those particular people.
How do you explain the lack of conflict involving East Asians? The only East Asians that might be a problem are the Chinese that are loyal to the CCP.
That doesn't seem to be the case for any of Europe. In fact, many of the countries that leaned most toward socialism have been implementing several capitalistic reforms -- like Sweden. Even Norway is more capitalistic now than they were a few decades ago, and some of that involves lowering regulations.
The issue isn't funding. It's job training. I'd be fine with expanding welfare solely for the purpose of helping people get job training.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
there have to be jobs tho. that's why outsourcing and china are so gay.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
cue libertarian globalist dipshits and their internationalist fascist corporatist slogans.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
you got your populism all over my comparative advantage.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
That was bound to happen. There have always been false rape accusations, so of course the more people who come forward, the more frauds we're going to have. But in order to get to a point where people feel comfortable coming forward AND people don't blindly believe all the accusers, we have to go through this rough patch. I rather it happen now than we keep our current culture where most victims never come forward.
Yup. And that's part of what's great about the West. We neutered Christianity. Not completely, though. We only took one nut. But us Atheists are coming for the other one.
Well East Asians have a high IQ rate, which means they don't constantly fall behind and then bitch about systemic racism. However, any kind of Multiracialism causes trouble. Multiracialism leads to lower social trust and fights over representation, even if it's only two races that both have high IQ rates. We're definitely better off with average IQ white Muslims than high IQ Ashkenazi Jews.
Sure, because like I said, when we don't have some regulation to help the working-class, we end up with much more regulation to help the rich. The Nordic countries have done such a good job with regulation that they're able to cut back now. I wouldn't say Sweden and Norway are more Capitalist now, because none of the cut backs have been done without consideration for the working-class. They're trying to have small government without dicking over the workers, like American Conservatives do.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
Saint Trump has increased outsourcing. And I'll be god DAMNED if I let you disrespect Saint Trump!
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
rate of outsourcing has slowed. that's a win. which dem pledges to do better on globalist zealotry?
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But it's still increased under Trump. Trump has been more of a Globalist than Obama. The rest of your comment is #whataboutism.
