APP - Why should people believe in Liberalism?

SM, what "traditional values" are you claiming have been (or are being) thrown out simply because they are traditional values?
 
Southern Man said:
Who's views are more in line with the founders, today's liberals or today's conservatives?
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Absolutely today's liberals. Most fiscal/SSE touting conservatives are more in line with the laissez faire monopoly capitalist of the gilded age of the late 19th century and social conservative would simply adore the absolute authority of the divine monarchs.
 
Southern Man said:
Who's views are more in line with the founders, today's liberals or today's conservatives?
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Todays Liberals for the most part. Except when it comes to property rights. Here's a basic flow chart for you to follow

Do you, Southern Man, believe in a idea/prinicple/law?

If yes, the Founders were against it.

If no, the Founders supported it.

EDIT: for those who are unaware, I am of course referring to classical liberals here, not the neo-liberals that permeate throughout every facet of society today.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Absolutely today's liberals. Most fiscal/SSE touting conservatives are more in line with the laissez faire monopoly capitalist of the gilded age of the late 19th century and social conservative would simply adore the absolute authority of the divine monarchs.
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The Founders were big fans of limited government spending and limited government in general.
 
The reason why I asked that last question of Mott, is because there is a difference between the American Revolution (1763-1791) and the War of Independence (1775-1783). 1763 marked not only the end of the French & Indian War and the passage of the Proclamation in an attempt to prevent further conflict, but it also marked the end of Salutary Neglect.

As such, the ideals of the American Revolution had largely been established for a long time. The first example of republican government dating back the 1619 (House of Burgesses), of religious freedom when the Pilgrims arrived from England, and let's not forget that Jamestown, the first settlement, was founded by a corporation, along with the the Carolina colonies later on.

The watershed moment really came in 1688, during the Glorious Revolution. King James II had temporarily ended Salutary Neglect and was trying to force all of the colonies onto Royal Charters. The colonists enacted their own Glorious Revolution, driving the deposed king's officers out of power, and were actually rebuked by Parliament for this. And from the 1688 revolution, England got a Constitutional Monarchy, and from the principles of moderation and common law, all Englishmen secured an unwritten Constitution, based upon common law.

The American Founding Fathers considered themselves Englishmen, and cherished constitutionalism. They argued not against monarchy, but against tyranny, and for their constitutional rights. They concluded, during the debate with Parliament, that monarchy was unsuited to upholding their interests, and thus leaned toward establishing a republic when they broke away. They first symbolized their break, not through the Declaration, but through having each colony draft its own constitution, and Adams convinced them to do this by arguing that the entire crisis could be blamed on having an unwritten constitution, that could be interpretated out of existence by tyrants.

The Founders realized that their Revolution was the product of nearly two centuries of experience and philosophical and political development. This is why they would argue, suddenly, that the French Revolution which came so soon afterward was so radical that it should not be openly and directly supported. Furthermore, the most crucial region in all of this, New England, was the most conservative bastion of the entire North American Colonies, without which, there would have been no revolution.
 
Threedee said:
The reason why I asked that last question of Mott, is because there is a difference between the American Revolution (1763-1791) and the War of Independence (1775-1783). 1763 marked not only the end of the French & Indian War and the passage of the Proclamation in an attempt to prevent further conflict, but it also marked the end of Salutary Neglect.

As such, the ideals of the American Revolution had largely been established for a long time. The first example of republican government dating back the 1619 (House of Burgesses), of religious freedom when the Pilgrims arrived from England, and let's not forget that Jamestown, the first settlement, was founded by a corporation, along with the the Carolina colonies later on.

The watershed moment really came in 1688, during the Glorious Revolution. King James II had temporarily ended Salutary Neglect and was trying to force all of the colonies onto Royal Charters. The colonists enacted their own Glorious Revolution, driving the deposed king's officers out of power, and were actually rebuked by Parliament for this. And from the 1688 revolution, England got a Constitutional Monarchy, and from the principles of moderation and common law, all Englishmen secured an unwritten Constitution, based upon common law.

The American Founding Fathers considered themselves Englishmen, and cherished constitutionalism. They argued not against monarchy, but against tyranny, and for their constitutional rights. They concluded, during the debate with Parliament, that monarchy was unsuited to upholding their interests, and thus leaned toward establishing a republic when they broke away. They first symbolized their break, not through the Declaration, but through having each colony draft its own constitution, and Adams convinced them to do this by arguing that the entire crisis could be blamed on having an unwritten constitution, that could be interpretated out of existence by tyrants.

The Founders realized that their Revolution was the product of nearly two centuries of experience and philosophical and political development. This is why they would argue, suddenly, that the French Revolution which came so soon afterward was so radical that it should not be openly and directly supported. Furthermore, the most crucial region in all of this, New England, was the most conservative bastion of the entire North American Colonies, without which, there would have been no revolution.
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The French revolution was corrupted. It wasn't a radical version of liberalism. It wasn't liberalism at all.
 
Southern Man said:
Who's views are more in line with the founders, today's liberals or today's conservatives?
Click to expand...

The question should be "who's views are righter?", not "who's views agree most with the founders?" The founder would not have tolerated such hero worship. And, besides, if it we were just checking who agreed most with the founders, whoever believed in slavery would come out on top.

Slavery - if it was good enough for the founders, it's good enough for me.
 
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