APP - Why should people believe in Liberalism?

Caboose said:
So.... they believed in god? And that makes them social conservatives?

I believe in god (well, A god).
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Then you are at least somewhat socially conservative. To some extent, we all are, since we're not hippies, we don't do it in the streets, we exercize some self-restraint, etc.
 
Threedee said:
Then you are at least somewhat socially conservative. To some extent, we all are, since we're not hippies, we don't do it in the streets, we exercize some self-restraint, etc.
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I hardly think that is the context of the thread here.
 
Southern Man said:
Read the Declaration of Independence. Who were they referring to when they used the word "Creator"? Many Liberals today don't believe in God, and most don't believe in natural rights. They think the government gives us rights. Al Fucking Gore even stated that once during a debate.
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I believe in God. In fact, I am a christian. And you maintain that I am a liberal.

Try again?
 
WinterBorn said:
I don't think anyone wants to see single parents, but the "traditional values" violation is that she had sex out of wedlock, and either refused to marry the guy or he bailed. Traditionally, she would have given the child up for adoption.

There is a huge difference between community stigma and laws making it illegal.
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nowhere in this thread, prior to this post, has anyone made any suggestion about making anything illegal.....
 
WinterBorn said:
The implication is that nontraditionalists have no values?


I don't see a problem with traditional values. If that is how you want to live, knock yourself out. But when someone tries to use the force of the gov't to make "traditional values" into laws, I have a problem with that.
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yet you seem to have no problem with using the force of government to make non traditional value into law....
 
Threedee said:
Since nontraditionalists today are often driven by postmodern politics, all of which are grounded in materialism rather than in principle, I would definitely hesitate to say they have values.
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uh, you have it upside down....Modernists are grounded in materialism, postmodern rejects materialism....you're a generation behind in your 'isms'........
 
WinterBorn said:
I am still waiting for someone to tell us a desireable "traditional value" that was rejected by liberals for no reason other than liberalism.

Anyone besides a delusional paranoid?
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independence versus dependency......liberals cannot abide a society which is not dependent upon the government......
 
Mott the Hoople said:
And you still haven't studied history have you? They were revolutionaries. They discarded traditional values for new revolutionary ones.
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lol....let me guess....next you'll be pretending there is some type of relationship between the founding fathers and Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Harry Reid, and Maxine Waters?......
 
midcan5 said:
I see my short fable went over the head of the wingnuts on JPP. That is to be expected as if they thought they would not be wingnuts. But just to be fair and liberal in hopes a few are not completely brain dead: The little boy does not understand the source of his name in the same manner that SM knows nothing about social liberalism. It is mere sloganizing on his part without thought. What is 'white guilt' but a prejudiced rationalization used to condemn and not help. But that is all wingnuts do. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/HIRRHE.html?show=reviews

Bird brains like yurt, ppp, and sm can only condemn with not an iota of truth or reality. Stupidity it seems. knows no bounds.

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:8-9

www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0610100318oct10,1,1903801.story

What it means to be a liberal

By Geoffrey R. Stone. Geoffrey R. Stone, a law professor at the University of Chicago, is the author of "Perilous Times: Free Speech in Wartime."


"For most of the past four decades, liberals have been in retreat. Since the election of Richard Nixon in 1968, Republicans have controlled the White House 70 percent of the time and Republican presidents have made 86 percent of the U.S. Supreme Court appointments. In many quarters, the word "liberal" has become a pejorative. Part of the problem is that liberals have failed to define themselves and to state clearly what they believe. As a liberal, I find that appalling.

In that light, I thought it might be interesting to try to articulate 10 propositions that seem to me to define "liberal" today. Undoubtedly, not all liberals embrace all of these propositions, and many conservatives embrace at least some of them.

Moreover, because 10 is a small number, the list is not exhaustive. And because these propositions will in some instances conflict, the "liberal" position on a specific issue may not always be predictable. My goal, however, is not to end discussion, but to invite debate.

1. Liberals believe individuals should doubt their own truths and consider fairly and open-mindedly the truths of others. This is at the very heart of liberalism. Liberals understand, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once observed, that "time has upset many fighting faiths." Liberals are skeptical of censorship and celebrate free and open debate.

2. Liberals believe individuals should be tolerant and respectful of difference. It is liberals who have supported and continue to support the civil rights movement, affirmative action, the Equal Rights Amendment and the rights of gays and lesbians. (Note that a conflict between propositions 1 and 2 leads to divisions among liberals on issues like pornography and hate speech.)

3. Liberals believe individuals have a right and a responsibility to participate in public debate. It is liberals who have championed and continue to champion expansion of the franchise; the elimination of obstacles to voting; "one person, one vote;" limits on partisan gerrymandering; campaign-finance reform; and a more vibrant freedom of speech. They believe, with Justice Louis Brandeis, that "the greatest menace to freedom is an inert people."

4. Liberals believe "we the people" are the governors and not the subjects of government, and that government must treat each person with that in mind. It is liberals who have defended and continue to defend the freedom of the press to investigate and challenge the government, the protection of individual privacy from overbearing government monitoring, and the right of individuals to reproductive freedom. (Note that libertarians, often thought of as "conservatives," share this value with liberals.)

5. Liberals believe government must respect and affirmatively safeguard the liberty, equality and dignity of each individual. It is liberals who have championed and continue to champion the rights of racial, religious and ethnic minorities, political dissidents, persons accused of crime and the outcasts of society. It is liberals who have insisted on the right to counsel, a broad application of the right to due process of law and the principle of equal protection for all people.

6. Liberals believe government has a fundamental responsibility to help those who are less fortunate. It is liberals who have supported and continue to support government programs to improve health care, education, social security, job training and welfare for the neediest members of society. It is liberals who maintain that a national community is like a family and that government exists in part to "promote the general welfare."

7. Liberals believe government should never act on the basis of sectarian faith. It is liberals who have opposed and continue to oppose school prayer and the teaching of creationism in public schools and who support government funding for stem-cell research, the rights of gays and lesbians and the freedom of choice for women.

8. Liberals believe courts have a special responsibility to protect individual liberties. It is principally liberal judges and justices who have preserved and continue to preserve freedom of expression, individual privacy, freedom of religion and due process of law. (Conservative judges and justices more often wield judicial authority to protect property rights and the interests of corporations, commercial advertisers and the wealthy.)

9. Liberals believe government must protect the safety and security of the people, for without such protection liberalism is impossible. This, of course, is less a tenet of liberalism than a reply to those who attack liberalism. The accusation that liberals are unwilling to protect the nation from internal and external dangers is false. Because liberals respect competing values, such as procedural fairness and individual dignity, they weigh more carefully particular exercises of government power (such as the use of secret evidence, hearsay and torture), but they are no less willing to use government authority in other forms (such as expanded police forces and international diplomacy) to protect the nation and its citizens.

10. Liberals believe government must protect the safety and security of the people, without unnecessarily sacrificing constitutional values. It is liberals who have demanded and continue to demand legal protections to avoid the conviction of innocent people in the criminal justice system, reasonable restraints on government surveillance of American citizens, and fair procedures to ensure that alleged enemy combatants are in fact enemy combatants. Liberals adhere to the view expressed by Brandeis some 80 years ago: "Those who won our independence ... did not exalt order at the cost of liberty."

Consider this an invitation. Are these propositions meaningful? Are they helpful? Are they simply wrong? As a liberal, how would you change them or modify the list? As a conservative, how would you draft a similar list for conservatives?"


Geoffrey R. Stone, a law professor at the University of Chicago, is the author of "Perilous Times: Free Speech in Wartime."
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under those tests, I'm a liberal.....under all others, I'm not....
 
Caboose said:
Oh really now? Care to elaborate on that one? How were the founders socially conservative?
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they failed to mention in the Constitution a right to kill your unborn children, a right for people of the same sex to marry, a right to partake of recreational drugs, a right to have a strong federal government take care of all your problems from cradle to grave....all of which are really surprising, since they are just like today's liberals.......:pke:
 
PostmodernProphet said:
nowhere in this thread, prior to this post, has anyone made any suggestion about making anything illegal.....
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Then we are talking about removing social stigmas from situations. That, in my opinion, is nothing but making people less nosy & judgemental.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
yet you seem to have no problem with using the force of government to make non traditional value into law....
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No, I am not using the force of the gov't to make non-traditional values into law. I am very interested in using the force of the gov't to remove discrimination.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
independence versus dependency......liberals cannot abide a society which is not dependent upon the government......
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Do you believe that the liberals today are trying to make everyone dependent on the gov't, or that they believe the gov't should help those in need?

I understand that the end result is the same, but the intent is very different.
 
WinterBorn said:
No, I am not using the force of the gov't to make non-traditional values into law. I am very interested in using the force of the gov't to remove discrimination.
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uh, you were opposed to discrimination against women who wanted to kill their unborn children?.....you can pretend all you want but there is no denying that you ARE using the force of government to make your values (which are obviously non traditional) the law....
 
WinterBorn said:
Do you believe that the liberals today are trying to make everyone dependent on the gov't
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without a shadow of a doubt....those of you who think it's about charity are being played by those who run the Democratic Party.....how else do explain the continuation of policies that maintain a dependent under class.....liberals don't actually want to help anyone, they just want it to look like they care.....it's like the activist who buys a first class plane ticket from daddy's trust fund to go to the G8 meeting and throw garbage cans through store windows.....like the folks who cancel an investigation into New Black Panthers blocking poll entrances because it's "payback" time for blacks......like House Majority Leaders who claim unemployment compensation is the best way we can create new jobs.......like governments who block oil cleanup so they can gain leverage with unions and promote bans on offshore drilling........like stimulus plans that create 600,000 new public employees and watch private sector jobs disappear.....yeah, I think liberals today are trying to make everyone dependent on the government.....
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
uh, you were opposed to discrimination against women who wanted to kill their unborn children?.....you can pretend all you want but there is no denying that you ARE using the force of government to make your values (which are obviously non traditional) the law....
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I have not spoken out much on the abortion issue except to say that the problem is that there are only two extreme views being represented.

On the one hand the Right to Life group wants no abortions for any reason. And the Pro-Choice group wants abortion available to any woman at any stage in their pregnancy.

My position is that there are times when abortion is an appropriate choice but should not be used as retroactive birth control.


So I am not pretending anything.
 
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