APP - Why should people believe in Liberalism?

You seem to be under the misconception that the founding fathers were no more lifelike than their paintings.

John Adams described Alexander Hamilton as "a man who’s excessive production of secretions no number of whores could draw off.” Hamilton even had a 3 year affair with a woman 11 years younger than he was. She needed money, and he wanted sex. Her husband allowed it because he was making money. Hamilton even ruined the blackmail attempt by publishing the details of the adventure, saying ot was their business and no one else's.


Thomas Jefferson essentially kept a concubine at his disposal, in the slave Sally Hemings. Considering the social stigma against having sex with another race, do you think they did nothing else but straight sex?


Benjamin Franklin never legally married his "wife", but just cohabitated. She was married to someone else. And read his advice to younger men about the virtues of older women, and then tell us he didn't dabble in sodomy. lol


In short, you want the founding fathers to have behaved like you think is right. The lack of information does not prove anything of the sort.
 
Southern Man said:
Because they were moral men. :)
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Moral men? Not based on your definition of "morality".

Men who cheated on their wives, owned slaves and had sex with them, cohabitated with married women, maintained long term affairs with married women, are what you call moral men?

You want them to be these perfect, larger-than-life characters from your elementary school books. The reality is that they were men. They were brilliant, brave, forward thinking men. But they were men.
 
An occasional indiscretion does not discredit a man's life work. To do so is an example of a bifurcation fallacy.
 
Southern Man said:
An occasional indiscretion does not discredit a man's life work. To do so is an example of a bifurcation fallacy.
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Occasional indiscretion? Hamilton's affair with the younger, married woman went on for at least 3 years. Franklin's cohabitation with a woman for far longer than that. Occasional? lol

But no, an occasional indiscretion does not discredit an entire life's work. In fact, the sexual behaviors displayed have no effect on their legacy at all, in my mind. But what we know about these great men does not fit anywhere near your definition of "moral".

And you were the one making the claim that they did not do such things "Because they were moral men".

We have not done anything to discredit these great men.
 
Actually, I don't think Hamilton's affair went on for very long. I haven't read it, but one of Hamilton's modern apologists argued in a book that Hamilton probably didn't have an affair, but took the fall for the incident so as to maintain the administration's image and keep his agenda going. After all, his office was being accused of financial underhandlings, and he came out and admitted to having an affair and being blackmailed over it.

On the whole though, I would argue that most of the Founders, at least most of the Federalists aside from Hamilton, did live fairly moral lives.
 
Southern Man said:
An occasional indiscretion does not discredit a man's life work. To do so is an example of a bifurcation fallacy.
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YOu might want to recheck the definition of bifurcation fallacy. This has nothing to do with it.

You made the claim that the founding fathers wouldn't commit sodomy because they were moral men. We were not presenting you with any choices to be made and no false dilemma.
 
Threedee said:
Actually, I don't think Hamilton's affair went on for very long. I haven't read it, but one of Hamilton's modern apologists argued in a book that Hamilton probably didn't have an affair, but took the fall for the incident so as to maintain the administration's image and keep his agenda going. After all, his office was being accused of financial underhandlings, and he came out and admitted to having an affair and being blackmailed over it.

On the whole though, I would argue that most of the Founders, at least most of the Federalists aside from Hamilton, did live fairly moral lives.
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I'll have to locate the book, but what I have read is that a woman came to him in need of money, and he took it to her that night in exchange for sex.

Personally, I don't see such an arrangement as an issue, since all parties are willing and no one was harmed.

There have always been rumors of the proclivities of the founding fathers. I do not see it as a smear against them.
 
WinterBorn said:
I'll have to locate the book, but what I have read is that a woman came to him in need of money, and he took it to her that night in exchange for sex.

Personally, I don't see such an arrangement as an issue, since all parties are willing and no one was harmed.

There have always been rumors of the proclivities of the founding fathers. I do not see it as a smear against them.
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One of my history profs mentioned to me in conversation about Burr and Hamilton that they were noted for being young, handsome, dashing, and frequently successful with the ladies during their gallant war years. In some ways, they were competing right from the very start in that respect, but aside from that, I've never heard of Hamilton getting involved with any other women besides his wife and the one affair he was accused of having...
 
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