Why Unregulated Capitalism Naturally Creates Poverty; And How To Fix It

Hello cawacko,



People flood into our country and they also flood into those other countries with lower poverty rates than the USA. They come from 'developing countries.' Migrants do not typically have regular internet access at all. They typically go on word-of-mouth and they try to find the nearest location which offers a solution to their predicament.

None of your points really addresses the OP.

Capitalism naturally creates poverty.

The system creates wealth at the top end and poverty at the low end.

Capitalism is competition. It creates winners and it creates losers. That is the nature of competition.

Those who are left behind by success are impoverished.

In a competition, not everyone wins.

The only rules in capitalism are imposed by governments, which attempt to regulate capitalism.

Fewer rules results in greater wealth inequality. That is the situation we have now. Despite all the complaining by all the super-rich people and their less rich cheerleaders who want to be rich, there are insufficient rules in American capitalism to prevent widespread poverty.

Do you know what percentage of people in the United States do not know where their next meal is coming from?

A LOT. More than in most industrialized nations.

It's pretty hard to try to compete for success in capitalism if you don't even know where your next meal is coming from. You tend to focus only on your hunger and what you can possibly do about it with nothing to work with.

Sure, we can attempt to create a world with no competition. There's only one school, one food choice, one clothing choice, one political choice etc. That way we have no losers and somehow we'll all have enough of what we need.

Not holding my breath...
 
Capitalism thrives where there is an abundant work force with lots of competition for the given number of jobs, thus creating a market-driven low cost of labor by keeping wages low.

Where people can get fabulously rich by ripping off workers, the rip-off of workers will be prominent.

The structure of our economy does not have enough well-paying jobs for every potential worker. The unregulated free market produces this. The goal of employers it to pay as little as possible while still getting adequate performance of the worker to satisfy the business model.

If one worker betters himself or herself, and advances into a higher-paying job, somewhere, somebody else, somebody less qualified - loses out. Workers are in a constant competition with other workers to improve their qualifications. No wonder we have so many over-qualified workers!

Since there are not enough well-paying jobs for everyone, and workers are getting more and more education, this produces a situation where we see lots of over-qualified workers in less demanding less desirable jobs. Meanwhile, the education system is getting rich as student debt goes into orbit. This is ridiculous.

We, the people, do not have to accept that the rich and powerful will continue to exploit this inefficient form of capitalism which guarantees that there are not enough well-paying jobs for everyone who wants one. All we have to do is wise up to the big picture, and vote for more regulation of big corporate power, and vote for changing our government to end legalized corruption of big money in government:

Corruption Is Legal In America! Here's how to fix that...

I'm all for stopping lobbying and making Congress do their jobs.

Their corruption is one of the worst things about America right now.

They voted themselves the keys to the country in 2 stages.

One was under Carter, and he vetoed it (as he should have) but they had the votes (2/3) to override the veto.

The 2nd was Reagan's 2nd Congress, they just voted themselves everything and it sailed through.

On the bright side..Congress not representing the people manifested itself in those years..before that it was largely as the FF intended.

On the dark side, they've been ripping Americans off and not doing their jobs for around..4 decades?

Congress will not vote themselves out of legal bribery.
Somebody's going to have to make them get right or the country will implode.
 
Sure, we can attempt to create a world with no competition. There's only one school, one food choice, one clothing choice, one political choice etc. That way we have no losers and somehow we'll all have enough of what we need.

Not holding my breath...

Competition is exactly what companies seek to end. That is why we have a nation that used trust-busting to restore it. Competition results in innovation, price competition, and tighter profits. Companies do everything to avoid it. That is why we have had eras of mergers and buying up competition.The point is to eliminate competition so price setting and max profits are possible.
The people and the government want competition. It is the corporations who do not.
Oligopoly is a station on the way to monopoly. That is where we are now. A few companies control almost every industry,. They skin us like a fish. Cable and phone are great examples. Some areas have almost no choice. Others have choices between companies that provide the same thing at identical prices. How can an industry exist and provide abysmal customer service decade after decade.? Easy, they all abuse you the same. They are not fighting to give better anything. They just fight in advertising.
 
Competition is exactly what companies seek to end. That is why we have a nation that used trust-busting to restore it. Competition results in innovation, price competition, and tighter profits. Companies do everything to avoid it. That is why we have had eras of mergers and buying up competition.The point is to eliminate competition so price setting and max profits are possible.
The people and the government want competition. It is the corporations who do not.
Oligopoly is a station on the way to monopoly. That is where we are now. A few companies control almost every industry,. They skin us like a fish. Cable and phone are great examples. Some areas have almost no choice. Others have choices between companies that provide the same thing at identical prices. How can an industry exist and provide abysmal customer service decade after decade.? Easy, they all abuse you the same. They are not fighting to give better anything. They just fight in advertising.

Once again, why don’t you read what I’m responding to before you respond to me.
 
Hello cawacko,

Sure, we can attempt to create a world with no competition. There's only one school, one food choice, one clothing choice, one political choice etc. That way we have no losers and somehow we'll all have enough of what we need.

Not holding my breath...

Total exaggeration. :rolleyes: I suggested none of that.

What we need is to have more rules and begin to limit the extreme wealth inequality and work harder to create a floor beneath which people do not sink. It's irresponsible for people to be getting so rich as others can't even make ends meet. Certainly we can tweak things a little to reduce the ratio. That's not "creating a world with no competition." That just getting a little more aggressive with the rules of the competition. There will still be plenty of competition, I assure you.
 
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Hello Nordberg,

Competition is exactly what companies seek to end. That is why we have a nation that used trust-busting to restore it. Competition results in innovation, price competition, and tighter profits. Companies do everything to avoid it. That is why we have had eras of mergers and buying up competition.The point is to eliminate competition so price setting and max profits are possible.
The people and the government want competition. It is the corporations who do not.
Oligopoly is a station on the way to monopoly. That is where we are now. A few companies control almost every industry,. They skin us like a fish. Cable and phone are great examples. Some areas have almost no choice. Others have choices between companies that provide the same thing at identical prices. How can an industry exist and provide abysmal customer service decade after decade.? Easy, they all abuse you the same. They are not fighting to give better anything. They just fight in advertising.

That's so true. Cable and phone ought to be public services. No competition. It's ridiculous.

I just found out the big conglomerates are buying up all the little audio companies. You can't get Boston Acoustics speakers any more. Got bought up and shut down, just to eliminate competition. And there went some American jobs.
 
One of the ways capitalism creates poverty is when a large manufacturer moves out of a region where most of the jobs depended on that one employer.

Detroit used to be a good place to live. Just like Flint Michigan. There was lots of work, a strong middle class, a vibrant local economy. Then the powerful large employer makes a big decision to move operations elsewhere, lays everybody off, and everything changes for that locality. Property values crash. The local economy goes into recession. Even if some still have jobs, they can't leave because they can't sell their home. Many mortgages upside down. Very depressing. Vacant homes and buildings. Crime grows.

Capitalism did that.

Capitalism created all that poverty.
 
It happened in many manufacturing towns.

It happened to the steel industry. (Trump promised to bring it all back - it was a lie.)

It has been happening to the coal industry. (Trump promised to bring it all back - it was a lie.)

There are towns with big vacant industrial buildings and equipment all now sitting idle, weeds growing up through the asphalt parking lots where hundreds of worker cars used to park every day.

Capitalism did that.
 
After a large employer leaves a big hole in a local economy there are other chain reaction effects.

The local city or county government still has a large infrastructure, a water system, a sewer system, electrical power system. But with so many vacant homes, without all the paying customers, the few remaining paying customers do not generate enough revenue to make the numbers work. Rates have to rise right at a time when there is less business, less local worker remuneration or raises. And there is also a big cut in tax revenue. Governments become unable to maintain roads, infrastructure, parks, streetlights, services. It's an invitation for crime.

Capitalism did that.

And then Republicans claim Democrats are at fault, create state laws where the state takes over an insolvent town or city government, brings in a state manager who has absolute authority over city council. That's what happened in Flint, why the water crisis happened and poisoned all those people. Republicans were trying to balance the books in the wreckage of capitalism so they could keep taxes for the rich as low as possible.
 
When it was properly fettered

You know


That time all you righties want to go back to


The one FDR created with liberal policy

iu
 
Hello cawacko,



Total exaggeration. :rolleyes: I suggested none of that.

What we need is to have more rules and begin to limit the extreme wealth inequality and work harder to create a floor beneath which people do not sink. It's irresponsible for people to be getting so rich as others can't even make ends meet. Certainly we can tweak things a little to reduce the ratio. That's not "creating a world with no competition." That just getting a little more aggressive with the rules of the competition. There will still be plenty of competition, I assure you.

Sounds like "Surplus labor value" bullshit to me. Prove me wrong, comrade.
 
Must be tragic to work years, build a family, build a life, pay on a mortgage, and then have it all ripped away from you and you can't even sell out and move to a place where capitalism has not done such a terrible thing to a community.
 
One of the ways capitalism creates poverty is when a large manufacturer moves out of a region where most of the jobs depended on that one employer.

Detroit used to be a good place to live. Just like Flint Michigan. There was lots of work, a strong middle class, a vibrant local economy. Then the powerful large employer makes a big decision to move operations elsewhere, lays everybody off, and everything changes for that locality. Property values crash. The local economy goes into recession. Even if some still have jobs, they can't leave because they can't sell their home. Many mortgages upside down. Very depressing. Vacant homes and buildings. Crime grows.

Capitalism did that.

Capitalism created all that poverty.

You, sir, are a certifiable moron.

Capitalism creates WEALTH, not poverty. It is SOCIALISM that creates poverty (via theft of wealth).
 
One of the ways capitalism creates poverty is when a large manufacturer moves out of a region where most of the jobs depended on that one employer.

Detroit used to be a good place to live. Just like Flint Michigan. There was lots of work, a strong middle class, a vibrant local economy. Then the powerful large employer makes a big decision to move operations elsewhere, lays everybody off, and everything changes for that locality. Property values crash. The local economy goes into recession. Even if some still have jobs, they can't leave because they can't sell their home. Many mortgages upside down. Very depressing. Vacant homes and buildings. Crime grows.

Capitalism did that.

Capitalism created all that poverty.

It isn't that simple.

Detroit used to be a good place to live then Democrat politicians pushing Socialist-like agendas screwed it up. From unions demanding ever higher wages and benefits to do the same job, to politicians seeing the auto industry as a cash cow to be taxed to pay for generous welfare and social benefits, Detroit was doomed to fail sooner or later as the money ran out--as it always does.

It's not unique to the US either. Both the French and British auto industry collapsed much the same way for the same reasons.


So, as the socialist-welfare state grew and government taxed more and more to pay for it while unions--backed by government--demanded higher and higher wages, the corporations and capitalists left. They simply couldn't afford what the Progressives wanted.

Same way in Britain. British Leyland was even government owned, the British equivalent of GM. The union there did the same thing, but they made a crappy product because they saw the government as unable to do anything about it. When Margaret Thatcher was elected, she saw a company owned by the government that was costing more than simply putting all the workers on welfare and closing the plant. So she did. Then the British government sold off all the parts of British Leyland they could to capitalists who revitalized them and turned them back into profit centers.

Socialism is the fail, not Capitalism.
 
Hello T. A. Gardner,

It isn't that simple.

Detroit used to be a good place to live then Democrat politicians pushing Socialist-like agendas screwed it up. From unions demanding ever higher wages and benefits to do the same job, to politicians seeing the auto industry as a cash cow to be taxed to pay for generous welfare and social benefits, Detroit was doomed to fail sooner or later as the money ran out--as it always does.

It's not unique to the US either. Both the French and British auto industry collapsed much the same way for the same reasons.


So, as the socialist-welfare state grew and government taxed more and more to pay for it while unions--backed by government--demanded higher and higher wages, the corporations and capitalists left. They simply couldn't afford what the Progressives wanted.

Same way in Britain. British Leyland was even government owned, the British equivalent of GM. The union there did the same thing, but they made a crappy product because they saw the government as unable to do anything about it. When Margaret Thatcher was elected, she saw a company owned by the government that was costing more than simply putting all the workers on welfare and closing the plant. So she did. Then the British government sold off all the parts of British Leyland they could to capitalists who revitalized them and turned them back into profit centers.

Socialism is the fail, not Capitalism.

Yeah, that's the right wing line. Hey. You guys gotta have something to believe to explain how badly improperly regulated capitalism has raped our land.

One has only to look at the disproportional rise in executive pay vs worker pay to see that capitalist union-busting made executives rich but mostly has created abject poverty in it's wake.

If your theory were true, then after the unions were gone, capitalists should have been able to move back into the blighted areas, rich with potential human capital, and exploit that human capital to create shared wealth in the region with the (fictitious) 'great' non-union well-paying jobs.

But that didn't happen, now did it?

No.

Instead, what we see is a wasteland of American cities with no-longer-unionized and willing workers languishing because greedy American capitalism is more interested in cheaper overseas labor.

The only capitalists to come in an utilize this vast untapped source of human capital are the online sellers who need to staff warehouses full of Chinese merchandise, forcing once proud and well-paid American workers to distribute the imported products manufactured in the countries where their previous well-paying jobs were shipped overseas. They work to near-death exhaustion, often unable to even take the time to use the bathroom because every single one of their very footsteps is counted by the computerized bean-counters. If they don't constantly hustle they are fired. American warehouse workers are afraid to even drink water while on the job because it will cause them to have to go to the bathroom, which will possibly get them 'written up' for retribution in the form of reduced wages, reduced hours, probation and the threat of job loss.

Most workers cannot possibly keep up the maddening pace of American warehouse work and never even qualify for the terrible jobs, or if they do, they don't last long. Those jobs have a high turn-over rate, for good reason. They are sweat shops.

IF the workers ever do manage enough time to organize and vote to unionize, the corporation is strongly likely to simply close down that warehouse, lay everyone off, and open up another warehouse in another capitalism-blighted area where they are sure to find plenty of applicants, most of whom are sadly unable to keep up the maddening pace. The greedy corporation will weed through the hundreds of applicants in order to find the few who can and are willing to keep up the breakneck pace demanded of them.

Those workers who do manage to 'cut it,' and keep those jobs for a while, don't last long. As soon as they get any injury or repetitive motion injury, they are outta there, unable to work. Burn-out is high, morale low. Anybody who has a problem with it will be shown the door and any one of 100's of applicants willing to give it a go for as long as they can last will be quickly ushered in to replace the burnt out fired ex warehouse workers.
 
If capitalism produced widespread wealth, Louisiana would be full of rich people, as it is the hub of oil energy production and shipping.

Instead, capitalism in Louisiana has produced widespread poverty.

Louisiana is one of the poorest states per capita.

Capitalism in Louisiana has apparently produced fantastic wealth for a few, (some who do not even live in Louisana,) and otherwise what has been produced is poverty.
 
Capitalism in West Virginia has been the source of many jobs for many decades in the coal industry.

Supplying the nation and world with coal has been a relatively easy money-maker for the few owners and executives of the corporations which have nothing more to do than dig it up and sell it, basically. I mean, what could possibly be simpler? Money laying on the ground to bend over and collect?

If capitalism is so great, it should have been a piece of cake to make most of West Virginia a very rich economy.

Once again, the answer is no. The spoils went to the few rich holders of capital; pain, misery and poverty went to the masses.
 
One wonders if West Virginians have come to actually earn their misery with their voting, however.
They went big for the pigfucking orangutan, and even Manchin is a hopeless DINO.

I think that they're all hoping to become Beverly Hillbillies, but oil isn't to be found under every moonshine still.
Even though I'm a secular person, the phrase "There but for the Grace of God go I" rings in my head every time West Virginia is mentioned.
 
Hello T. A. Gardner,



Yeah, that's the right wing line. Hey. You guys gotta have something to believe to explain how badly improperly regulated capitalism has raped our land.

One has only to look at the disproportional rise in executive pay vs worker pay to see that capitalist union-busting made executives rich but mostly has created abject poverty in it's wake.

If your theory were true, then after the unions were gone, capitalists should have been able to move back into the blighted areas, rich with potential human capital, and exploit that human capital to create shared wealth in the region with the (fictitious) 'great' non-union well-paying jobs.

But that didn't happen, now did it?

No.

Instead, what we see is a wasteland of American cities with no-longer-unionized and willing workers languishing because greedy American capitalism is more interested in cheaper overseas labor.

The only capitalists to come in an utilize this vast untapped source of human capital are the online sellers who need to staff warehouses full of Chinese merchandise, forcing once proud and well-paid American workers to distribute the imported products manufactured in the countries where their previous well-paying jobs were shipped overseas. They work to near-death exhaustion, often unable to even take the time to use the bathroom because every single one of their very footsteps is counted by the computerized bean-counters. If they don't constantly hustle they are fired. American warehouse workers are afraid to even drink water while on the job because it will cause them to have to go to the bathroom, which will possibly get them 'written up' for retribution in the form of reduced wages, reduced hours, probation and the threat of job loss.

Most workers cannot possibly keep up the maddening pace of American warehouse work and never even qualify for the terrible jobs, or if they do, they don't last long. Those jobs have a high turn-over rate, for good reason. They are sweat shops.

IF the workers ever do manage enough time to organize and vote to unionize, the corporation is strongly likely to simply close down that warehouse, lay everyone off, and open up another warehouse in another capitalism-blighted area where they are sure to find plenty of applicants, most of whom are sadly unable to keep up the maddening pace. The greedy corporation will weed through the hundreds of applicants in order to find the few who can and are willing to keep up the breakneck pace demanded of them.

Those workers who do manage to 'cut it,' and keep those jobs for a while, don't last long. As soon as they get any injury or repetitive motion injury, they are outta there, unable to work. Burn-out is high, morale low. Anybody who has a problem with it will be shown the door and any one of 100's of applicants willing to give it a go for as long as they can last will be quickly ushered in to replace the burnt out fired ex warehouse workers.

This is too simplistic. Unions have their place, and in other areas are little more than a burden on the economy.

For example, unions have a place when workers really are exploited and paid a pittance for their work. Mining is a good example of this. Conditions are usually (historically speaking) dangerous and backbreaking. Mining companies often ran company stores--

As an aside, I've actually been in a couple of the last legacy Phelps Dodge ones decades ago. Interesting historical experience. No, my parents weren't employees, the stores were open to the public and existed in a number of all or mostly company towns in Arizona. Bagdad Arizona today is still an active company mining town too--

Anyway, those stores allowed employees credit towards purchases and often they had running bills that they would never pay off. So, unions got heavy support. I don't have a problem with that when employers are clearly taking advantage of employees.

On the other hand, many companies today pay good to reasonable wages for their workforce, particularly if at least some skill levels are involved. On the other hand, companies that can train a worker in a week or two to do some particular job have no particular reason to put a lot of effort into retention like higher pay or benefits. If anybody can do the job, then anybody is perfectly acceptable to the employer.

Socialism does no better either. I gave the example of British Leyland. They built crappy, poor quality, unreliable vehicles. The company was heavily unionized and the workers regularly struck for more pay and benefits. While striking they were entitled to welfare and other unemployment benefits from their employer the British government who owned British Leyland. The workers had little incentive to be efficient or produce a quality product. The union and worker's view was their jobs were guaranteed for life (much like the UAW position).
Morale was poor because both management and the union adopted an "us v. them" attitude towards everything.

In the end, as I stated, Margaret Thatcher decided along with Parliament that it was cheaper to close the business and put the workers on welfare.

In the late 80's and 90's in Germany right after the country reunited with the fall of Communism, the German government put a program in place to incentivize hiring ex- East German workers into West German corporations. At first these companies readily accepted and hired the East Germans. But once it was found that they had become used to Socialist conditions where working hard, being on time, producing a quality part, etc., were all things they didn't do the corporations stopped hiring them because they cost more in lost productivity than the incentives paid.

Capitalism can exploit workers and others no doubt in its quest for profits. But it will turn out an acceptable or quality products in quantity because if it doesn't it won't remain in business.
Socialism can exploit owners and others no doubt in its quest for equality. But it will turn out poor quality products in inadequate amounts because there is no incentive to do better.
 
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