Why We Always Need To Think Of The Collective...

StoneByStone said:
Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?
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I know, right? Even if we were serious, such a society would still have a better record than collectivism over the past 230 years.
 
PoliTalker said:
It's pretty basic logic:

a) We are humans.

b) Humans exist in societies. Societies serve the needs of the individuals.

c) If a majority of humans become sociopaths; then society will fail.

SO:

d) Individualism must be balanced with consideration for society. Most individuals must do something for society or society will fail.

And,

e) Since some are far more able to contribute, if they do contribute more, then society can do much more to enhance it's service to individuals.

***

This is all a logical progression of facts and conclusions on the assumption that we want society to improve and continue to thrive.
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a) All humans are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

b) Societies create governments. Government is force by definition & corruption by nature.

c) If a majority of humans ignore who they are governed by, their society will be governed by the elitist snobs & crooks who enjoy a 2 standards of justice system, one for themselves & one for the masses.

d) Individualism & individual rights are the foundation of the most successful of societies & the founding principles of the United States Of America. Individuals that accept personal responsibility & care for themselves & their families serve society to it’s greatest degree.

e) There is no greater contribution to society than individual responsibility, hard work, innovation, honesty & private charity.

And that is why we always have to think of the collective.
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And that is why we have to always think of the family first, then our country & the maintenance of individual liberty & our unalienable rights.

It's the kind of guidance which, if followed by most members of society, leads to the quality of life continuing to improve in that society. Promoting the GENERAL welfare ensures domestic peace and tranquility, so that society will endure. Our Constitution wisely says so.
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The “general welfare” only as enumerated by our Constitution Article One, Section Eight as it applies to the national governance & everything else reserved to the States & the people as mandated by Amendment 10.

Socialism is all about what is good for the society.
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Go tell the folks in Venezuela, North Korea, China, & Cuba that!

Capitalism, while providing a lot for society, is also about what a shrewd and determined individual can do for himself. And that's wonderful in good measure. Just not always. It is only logical that these two pursuits must be balanced with one another.
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“Socialism is the equal sharing of the misery, capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.” (Sr. Winston Churchill)

What is the correct balance between selfish concerns and social concerns? Like it or not, humans are becoming more interconnected and interdependent as time progresses.
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Dependent on BIG corrupt authoritarian government because its agenda is to bribe the vote with taxpayer’s money. The perfect scam to enslave the masses to government reliance & thereby eliminate freedom and individual rights & seat & keep seated the elitist snobs & crooks.

It is only natural and predictable that some will resist recognizing the collective in their own way. But emotional resistance is not logical. It's emotional.
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“Emotional” love of freedom and individual unalienable rights is the mother of all “LOGIC!”

Logic says we need to consider the impact on society of what we do. The more people there are on this planet, the more that matters.
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Logic says we need to guard with jealous passion our Bill OF Rights, our individual liberty & our founding principles lest we are enslaved to a BIG smothering intrusive authoritarian government!

There is nothing in our Constitution that says we will be a capitalist nation. Or a socialist one.
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Our Constitution is our written guarantee of individual rights and liberty & the restrictions on the size & scope of government. Thereby alone is the roadmap for capitalism & the harness on any socialist scamming government.

Because the truth is: we don't have to choose. We can have both. We can take the best qualities of each, and minimize the downside of each. Mixing socialism with capitalism allows us to achieve the best balance between thinking of society and thinking of the individual.

But as much as we allow ourselves to think of the individual, we must always give proper consideration for the collective.
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Socialism is the anti-mixer to facilitate good governance. Socialism is only practiced by political authoritarians. Its definition is “authority by force.” Capitalism is the freedom to do as you damned well wish. In America, its only restrictions are based in the principle that no action can violate the rights of another of life, liberty, property & the pursuit of happiness!
 
StoneByStone said:
Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?
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Capitalism is everybody "working together" for themselves first, and thereby the "common good," fool!
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello StoneByStone,



Well I don't mind having a conversation about it. There are a lot of misconceptions out there. A lot of those right wing talking points are myths. They can't back them up. I have yet to see anybody offer any reason that anything in the OP is in error. I base my position on logic. It's pretty straightforward.

I'm listening, in case anybody has a logical consideration I got wrong or overlooked?

Anybody?
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I disagree! the OP in my opinion is one of the most anti-logical things I ever read. Creating a hybridized capitalist/socialist governing system is like attempting to mix oil with water. Capitalism is the "FREE" market, not designed to deliver equality,but designed to deliver "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" Socialism is fraudulent promises of equality based on lies, bribery & government force, financed by the labors of working folk!
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



"b) Humans exist in societies. Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

Which part of that do you disagree with?

That humans live in societies?

Or that societies serve the needs of the individuals.

Well it would be hard to deny that we live in societies because we do; and it is certainly those societies which serve the needs of the individuals. Most humans would not survive long if deprived of their society. Nobody to offer a job, nobody to sell food, nobody to do anything for that lone individual human without a society. Some very resourceful humans might make it on their own. But most would not survive long. So it is correct to say that humans live in societies and those societies serve the needs of individual humans.
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The latter half.
Only utopias do that and there are none nor have there been any.
 
Hello Celticguy,

Celticguy said:
The latter half.
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OK, that would be the part that says:

"Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

And you don't think that's true:

Celticguy said:
Only utopias do that and there are none nor have there been any.
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I disagree.

All societies serve the needs of the individuals to some extent or another. The higher the average lifestyle of the society, the more individual needs are being performed by society. Without society, that lone individual would be completely self-reliant for food, clothing, shelter, EVERYTHING.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



OK, that would be the part that says:

"Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

And you don't think that's true:



I disagree.

All societies serve the needs of the individuals to some extent or another. The higher the average lifestyle of the society, the more individual needs are being performed by society. Without society, that lone individual would be completely self-reliant for food, clothing, shelter, EVERYTHING.
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Proximity allows commerce between individuals.
Society is overhead to that process. Sometimes agreed upon overhead, mostly not.
 
Hello Celticguy,

Celticguy said:
Proximity allows commerce between individuals.
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Commerce between individuals? That's what happens in a society:

" society

n.
The totality of people regarded as forming a community of interdependent individuals.
n.
A group of people broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture."


Celticguy said:
Society is overhead to that process. Sometimes agreed upon overhead, mostly not.
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No, I must disagree. Commerce is only possible if there IS a society. OK? The lack of a society would be that individuals are not in contact or communication with one another. Like a bunch of lone predators. As soon as you have interactions between individuals, that is the basis of a society.

Individual humans depend on society to provide their needs. There is generally a transaction when this takes place, frequently something of common value such as money is exchanged in return for whatever good or service meets the need of the receiving individual, but that doesn't always happen. The individuals look to society to provide nearly all their needs. Almost anything an individual needs, it is probably coming from another individual or group in the broader society of humans.

Societies most definitely serve the needs of the individuals.
 
Commerce existed before society.
Society benefitted rule as a means of seperating individuals from their incomes. Taxes on commerce were far mor efficient than sending goons to rape and pillage.
 
StoneByStone said:
Yup, countries with both individualism and collectivism have never been able to reach the high standards of countries like Somalia.
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Somalia > Collectivist Cambodia/N Korea/Russia/Germany/etc.

Somalia isn't even the platinum standard for failure in the modern world, given the remaining existence of some Marxist states, along with Venezuela, the Congo, Burma, etc.
 
Robo said:
I disagree! the OP in my opinion is one of the most anti-logical things I ever read. Creating a hybridized capitalist/socialist governing system is like attempting to mix oil with water. Capitalism is the "FREE" market, not designed to deliver equality,but designed to deliver "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" Socialism is fraudulent promises of equality based on lies, bribery & government force, financed by the labors of working folk!
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According to poli's thinking; if you have enough food to feed your family for 2 days, but your neighbor has no food; then you should feed your family and neighbors for 1 day and tell your family "tough shit" on day 2.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



OK, that would be the part that says:

"Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

And you don't think that's true:



I disagree.

All societies serve the needs of the individuals to some extent or another. The higher the average lifestyle of the society, the more individual needs are being performed by society. Without society, that lone individual would be completely self-reliant for food, clothing, shelter, EVERYTHING.
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It's not true; because societies serve the needs that the "society" find important and care nothing about the "individual".

Prove me to be in error. :good4u:
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Celticguy,



Commerce between individuals? That's what happens in a society:

" society

n.
The totality of people regarded as forming a community of interdependent individuals.
n.
A group of people broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture."




.

Individual humans depend on society to provide their needs. There is generally a transaction when this takes place, frequently something of common value such as money is exchanged in return for whatever good or service meets the need of the receiving individual, but that doesn't always happen. The individuals look to society to provide nearly all their needs. Almost anything an individual needs, it is probably coming from another individual or group in the broader society of humans.

Societies most definitely serve the needs of the individuals.
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And you continue to spread bullshit, poser,; because TWO people do not make a society.
 
Howard the Duck said:
Somalia > Collectivist Cambodia/N Korea/Russia/Germany/etc.

Somalia isn't even the platinum standard for failure in the modern world, given the remaining existence of some Marxist states, along with Venezuela, the Congo, Burma, etc.
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Nobody is saying we should have complete government-enforced collectivism like Fascist countries have. Leftists want us to have freedom but also want people to think of others. We don't want to encourage the kind of immoral selfishness of Randism where it's seen as good to fuck over other people to make money.
 
One is free to care for society, promote the general welfare, and pursue his interests in a capitalist system already. There is nothing stopping him. That’s not the case in a socialist system.
 
evince said:
Then why do you think Americans should only be white stone?
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Has StoneByStone stated a disdain for Native Americans of color? Has he stated a disdain for people of Hispanic origin that are here legally? Has he stated a disdain for African Americans in our society? I haven’t read everything the guy has posted and disagree with a lot of what I do read, but from what I have read it is illegal immigration he opposes...by people of color or otherwise. I really wish the population of South America were white so your side can’t go to hollering “racism” every time someone opposes illegal crossings at our southern border.
 
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