Why We Always Need To Think Of The Collective...

[PoliTalker]

Hello Celticguy,

Closer to people gathering for mutual advantage at the sacrifice of individual autonomy.
The main difference is that you see society as greater than the sum of its parts.
Or
Strength in numbers.

Commerce is people gathering for mutual advantage.

I don't see how there can be commerce without some kind of social interdependence.

Even autonomy is society. It is self-governance.

It is the concept of self-governance being independent from the roll in society.

But there's that ever present reference to society.

Because the OP is straight up logic. We humans exist in societies and we depend on society for our needs. Society provides our needs. Certain individuals specialize in delivering certain needs of society, with different individuals focusing on different needs so that when all of society is put together, all needs are met.

The role of society in meeting our needs cannot be ignored.

How in the world would any of us have our needs met if it were not for the collective of humans working on supplying those needs?

 

[USFREEDOM911]

 

[Robo]

Commerce is people gathering for mutual advantage.

I don't see how there can be commerce without some kind of social interdependence.

What you CAN’T, & REFUSE to see is the fact that Capitalism is the FREE & mutually positive interaction of individually agreeable commerce & that’s the oh so obvious reason it’s so successful, while socialism is the fucking governments ministers deciding what and who needs whatever & by that notion conducting commerce at the point of a gun. Government socialism is anti-liberty, capitalism is the FREE market place.

 

[Gonzomin]

There are no socialistic countries and no capitalistic. They are all mixes. People in Scandanavian countries go to work just like we do. They have corporations and small businesses. We are just arguing about where tax money is allocated. The "socialistic "countries have a better safety net for people and provide healthcare for all. They have higher ratings for happiness.
Our incredible and growing wealth gap puts us at odds with each other. In America, a century plus of power and money going to the top is causing constant pressure and anger. Americans know the wealthy are living special and separate lives. They have the political and financial power to make laws help them at the people's expense.

 

[Celticguy]

Hello Celticguy,



Commerce is people gathering for mutual advantage.

I don't see how there can be commerce without some kind of social interdependence.

Even autonomy is society. It is self-governance.

It is the concept of self-governance being independent from the roll in society.

But there's that ever present reference to society.

Because the OP is straight up logic. We humans exist in societies and we depend on society for our needs. Society provides our needs. Certain individuals specialize in delivering certain needs of society, with different individuals focusing on different needs so that when all of society is put together, all needs are met.

The role of society in meeting our needs cannot be ignored.

How in the world would any of us have our needs met if it were not for the collective of humans working on supplying those needs?

The farmer doesnt require social interdependance , just compensation. Nor d oui es anyone else for that matter.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Celticguy,

The farmer doesnt require social interdependance , just compensation. Nor d oui es anyone else for that matter.

Farmers totally do require social interdependence. Most of the equipment they use is manufactured by somebody else in society. The fuel they use comes from another part of society. Most modern farms are corporations now, anyway. It's not just one person. One person rarely runs a productive farm. Often, even it if is a small farm, it is a family that runs it. If that one person farmer is married? That is a social interdependence.

You cannot detach commerce from social interdependence. Commerce is a form of social interdependence. Commerce is only possible in a society. Two people make a deal to trade that is a function of society.

Humans depend on society for their needs. Trying to argue against that is a losing argument.

There is nothing in the OP which is not logical.

 

[Celticguy]

Hello Celticguy,



Farmers totally do require social interdependence. Most of the equipment they use is manufactured by somebody else in society. The fuel they use comes from another part of society. Most modern farms are corporations now, anyway. It's not just one person. One person rarely runs a productive farm. Often, even it if is a small farm, it is a family that runs it. If that one person farmer is married? That is a social interdependence.

You cannot detach commerce from social interdependence. Commerce is a form of social interdependence. Commerce is only possible in a society. Two people make a deal to trade that is a function of society.

Humans depend on society for their needs. Trying to argue against that is a losing argument.

There is nothing in the OP which is not logical.

All thats required is compensation. Its just barter. You have something i want, i have something you want so we swap for a mutuably agreeable volume. You do not require society to do that. It all happened free of society for tens of thousands of years.
I understand that you will not agree.

 

[Truth Detector]

a) All humans are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

b) Societies create governments. Government is force by definition & corruption by nature.

c) If a majority of humans ignore who they are governed by, their society will be governed by the elitist snobs & crooks who enjoy a 2 standards of justice system, one for themselves & one for the masses.

d) Individualism & individual rights are the foundation of the most successful of societies & the founding principles of the United States Of America. Individuals that accept personal responsibility & care for themselves & their families serve society to it’s greatest degree.

e) There is no greater contribution to society than individual responsibility, hard work, innovation, honesty & private charity.

And that is why we have to always think of the family first, then our country & the maintenance of individual liberty & our unalienable rights.

The “general welfare” only as enumerated by our Constitution Article One, Section Eight as it applies to the national governance & everything else reserved to the States & the people as mandated by Amendment 10.

Go tell the folks in Venezuela, North Korea, China, & Cuba that!

“Socialism is the equal sharing of the misery, capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.” (Sr. Winston Churchill)

Dependent on BIG corrupt authoritarian government because its agenda is to bribe the vote with taxpayer’s money. The perfect scam to enslave the masses to government reliance & thereby eliminate freedom and individual rights & seat & keep seated the elitist snobs & crooks.

“Emotional” love of freedom and individual unalienable rights is the mother of all “LOGIC!”

Logic says we need to guard with jealous passion our Bill OF Rights, our individual liberty & our founding principles lest we are enslaved to a BIG smothering intrusive authoritarian government!

Our Constitution is our written guarantee of individual rights and liberty & the restrictions on the size & scope of government. Thereby alone is the roadmap for capitalism & the harness on any socialist scamming government.

Socialism is the anti-mixer to facilitate good governance. Socialism is only practiced by political authoritarians. Its definition is “authority by force.” Capitalism is the freedom to do as you damned well wish. In America, its only restrictions are based in the principle that no action can violate the rights of another of life, liberty, property & the pursuit of happiness!

BRAVO! Stated better than I could have and exactly how I feel!

 

[Truth Detector]

Nobody is saying we should have complete government-enforced collectivism like Fascist countries have. Leftists want us to have freedom but also want people to think of others. We don't want to encourage the kind of immoral selfishness of Randism where it's seen as good to fuck over other people to make money.

The problem with the historical fallacy that is the leftist ideology, in order to believe in these utopian ideals, it presumes that leftists in power can be the "deciders" for what is good for everyone. That leads to failure and is laughably naive.

We don't need "deciders" in Government to tell us how we should behave.

 

[Truth Detector]

America and Europe both have laws favoring the collective and either have turned into North Korea.

They do? Substitute "favoring the collective" to "deciders for the citizens" when bloviating about how great socialism is. You'll make slightly more sense.

 

[Truth Detector]

When has individualism ever led to a reign of terror, holocaust, killing fields, cultural/Bolshitvik/etc revolution, or a North Korea? One is clearly more dangerous than the other, as well as less conducive to the principles of Western liberalism.

Well stated. I don't expect pebble by pebble to have the IQ necessary to understand.

 

[StoneByStone]

The problem with the historical fallacy that is the leftist ideology, in order to believe in these utopian ideals, it presumes that leftists in power can be the "deciders" for what is good for everyone. That leads to failure and is laughably naive.

We don't need "deciders" in Government to tell us how we should behave.

Leftists don't want to be the deciders for other people. We're pro-choice because abortion should be your choice. We believe in LGBT rights because we want LGBT people to choose how they want to live. We want legalized prostitution and drugs because adults should be able to decide what they want to do with their own bodies. We want freedom of and from religion because we want you to decide for yourself what you believe.

Now sure, there are some things we don't want people doing. You want to kill other people? Well, too bad, we won't let you do that. But we will support your right to live how you want as long as you're not harming anyone else.
Freedom. Liberty. 'Murica.

 

[Truth Detector]

The GOP, with their promises of individualism, is bringing us to Fascism now.

LIE and LAME. Examples of this imagined Fascism please.

Often people who only care about themselves will stand around smiling while the government begins taking away rights of other people.

Key words; "government begins to take away rights." Individuals do not.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Celticguy,

All thats required is compensation. Its just barter. You have something i want, i have something you want so we swap for a mutuably agreeable volume. You do not require society to do that. It all happened free of society for tens of thousands of years.
I understand that you will not agree.

Of course I will not agree with the idea that commerce is not a form of social interdependence. I definitely consider commerce to be a form of social interdependence, a function of society.

When two or more individuals coordinate on anything besides a decision to fight one another, that is a social interaction.

People don't exist in a vacuum. People exist and flourish in society.

People get their needs met through social interactions.

I am amazed you are taking the position that humans do not rely on society to meet their needs.

Toasters don't grow on trees.

 

[StoneByStone]

LIE and LAME. Examples of this imagined Fascism please.



Key words; "government begins to take away rights." Individuals do not.

We'll always have government. That's one collective that will just always be there. But we can keep government in check by caring about the entire society. Fascism is achieved when people only care about themselves.
Or when people are manipulated into an "us vs them" mentality, like you have been.

 

[Truth Detector]

Leftists don't want to be the deciders for other people.

LIE and LAME. Your green initiatives, rent control initiatives, electric care initiatives are all efforts to FORCE people into compliance with goals "decided" by the left to be altruistic and good.

We're pro-choice because abortion should be your choice.

Wrong; you're pro-choice because you don't care about innocent lives and better choices than abortion.

We believe in LGBT rights because we want LGBT people to choose how they want to live.

STRAWMAN; no one is preventing LGBT people from choosing how they want to live. Neither should they be dictating to others how they should live and what they should believe in.

We want legalized prostitution and drugs because adults should be able to decide what they want to do with their own bodies.

This kind of dogma is naive and stupid. If we were to abide by such stupidity, society would devolve in to third world shit holeism. Which I know is the ultimate goal of leftists.

When you have a child, you will understand this better. I can't imagine you saying that it is perfectly fine if they go out on street corners to prostitute themselves for opioids. DUMB.

We want freedom of and from religion because we want you to decide for yourself what you believe.

Another incredible stupid statement. NO one is forcing you to become religious. You morons are trying to force everyone else into wiping religion out.

Now sure, there are some things we don't want people doing. You want to kill other people?
Well, too bad, we won't let you do that. But we will support your right to live how you want as long as you're not harming anyone else.
Freedom. Liberty. 'Murica.

Another LIE and STRAWMAN. Are you capable of making an argument without lying, strawman claims and looking stupid?

 

[Celticguy]

Exist and flourish ?

 

[Truth Detector]

We'll always have government.

Who is saying we won't? You love your strawmen don't you pebble by pebble.

That's one collective that will just always be there.

You think Government is a collective? DUMB.

But we can keep government in check by caring about the entire society.

WRONG: you keep Government in check by limiting it's powers and ensuring the right of the people to bear arms. You flunked High School history didn't you?

Fascism is achieved when people only care about themselves.

WRONG; Fascism is achieved when low IQ citizens on the left believe in handing over more power to a centralized authority in the false believe they will be more secure and taken care of.

Or when people are manipulated into an "us vs them" mentality, like you have been.

The only one's playing the us vs them game are you idiots on the left. "Not my President." "People who voted for Trump are morons."

So once again, you deflect and avoided answering my question honestly: Examples of Trump's Fascism. Where are they?

 

[Truth Detector]

Exist and flourish ?

View attachment 11360

A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Hello Celticguy,



Of course I will not agree with the idea that commerce is not a form of social interdependence. I definitely consider commerce to be a form of social interdependence, a function of society.

When two or more individuals coordinate on anything besides a decision to fight one another, that is a social interaction.

People don't exist in a vacuum. People exist and flourish in society.

People get their needs met through social interactions.

I am amazed you are taking the position that humans do not rely on society to meet their needs.

Toasters don't grow on trees.

"When two or more individuals coordinate on anything besides a decision to fight one another, that is a social interaction."

But "social interaction" does not require a "society", which has been your arguing point from the beginning.

Two people who meet and decide to exchange products, does not make them a society.