A Theology Question

[evince]

What does Occam’s Razor say for the creation of the Universe? The creation of Space-Time at the Big Bang? Just magic? LOL

The only logical answer is “I don’t know”.

I think of God as a place card; a name for something beyond the Natural Universe that is beyond mortal comprehension. I don’t know what it is, but it seems there’s more to existence than we are seeing on front of our noses.

That they are the nature of existence



It’s just what exists

No “creation” needed

 

[Dutch Uncle]

And this is how it starts. This is literally the blueprint you use for every single other poster who even mildly disagrees with a point you make.

This does seem to be your obsession/issue.

Why can't we get back to the fun discussions?

^^^
Translation: It’s all your fault!!!

LOL. Perry, this is why I think you are either underwater at work (if not unemployed), otherwise overstressed for unknown reasons or not the PhD you claim to be. You throw around insults then act like a six year old when those insults are thrown back at you.

What’s wrong with this picture, Perry? IMO, it’s a classic case of “Can dish it out but can’t take it.”

I simply lack the stomach for non-stop fighting which seems to be the thing you thrive on here. You appear to hate literally everyone else on this forum in one form or another and I don't really want to get into that with you. When you are not bitching about someone else you actually occasionally say things that are interesting. If I could engage with THAT Doc and not the usual Doc that would be optimum for me.

No insults, no attacks. Just the facts. You seem to thrive on pissing people off. YOU called me arrogant. YOU said I was attacking people.

You just want to get a rise out of me so you can put me on your shit list with literally everyone else on here so you can bitch about me, make up shit about me, whatever it is you do.

I have no stomach for it. It makes me really anxious and unhappy.

Like I said, generally I think I agree with you on 85% of things. I don't know why you have to be as nasty as you are. I wish it were otherwise. You seem like a reasonably smart guy but you have some issues.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The ancient life on Mars guys from the 1990s was the most significant fiasco I can recall, but to this day those guys still claim they found microbes in the Martian rock, and the jury has never been fully settled

If it can’t be replicated or verified, it didn’t happen. Sad.

Multiple nations have put probes on Mars looking for signs of life. So far nada. Zero. Zip. Not saying proof won’t be found, but obviously if life ever existed on Mars, it wasn’t thriving like on Earth.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

We are here because the physical world contained the possibility of our existence developing

Developing into what?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That reason is

That life was possible

Existence in Heaven would be preferable to life on Earth. It seems like God is slumming; the equivalent of the Rich and Famous vacationing in Haiti or Somalia.

 

[Cypress]

This is a key point. No one claims "There is nothing out there to discover that we haven't discovered yet", however, the fact that we choose to NOT BELIEVE that some particular item ("X") exists out there simply because we have zero evidence for it does not amount to a BELIEF that "X" does not exist.

That may sound a bit clunky but it is at the heart of this discussion.

It is NOT a "belief" (as some on here claim) that Thormalgazine does NOT exist (a thing I just made up and has no evidence for it). No one is "agnostic" about Thormalgazine. In fact no one believes Thormalgazine exists simply because I said the word.

Some on here feel that it is an active belief to fail to believe in something like God.

I understand their position that it is truly "I don't know", but that isn't how we treat it in our daily lives. Every single day we operate under simple rules "There is no elephant that lives in my shed out back", "there is no invisible wall that runs across the interstate".

All these things MIGHT be true but no one thinks it is an active BELIEF to NOT BELIEVE they exist.

There's a distinction between terrible and preposterous questions, and good and legitimate questions.

Asking if a pink unicorn is in my garage is a terrible and preposterous question.

Asking if there is some higher organizing principle underlying reality and the cosmos which is beyond science and human cognition is a good question.

 

[Cypress]

That reason is


That life was possible

The universe does seem finely tuned to allow for the creation of matter, water, carbon polymers, and the ingredients of life.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I assume your example must be related to rattle snakes or venomous spiders, so I will merely point out that isn't really the discussion. If I were in Texas in the wilderness there is EVERY ReASON to believe such a thing might be under there…

I understand their position that it is truly "I don't know", but that isn't how we treat it in our daily lives. Every single day we operate under simple rules "There is no elephant that lives in my shed out back", "there is no invisible wall that runs across the interstate".

All these things MIGHT be true but no one thinks it is an active BELIEF to NOT BELIEVE they exist.

Sooo…elephants and cows are relevant to the conversation but rattlesnakes and venomous spiders are not. Fascinating how your “logic” works, Perry.

The bottom line is that you and I agree that it’s unwise to leap without looking. Atheists are leaping. Pascal was logical. The Agnostic POV is logical. Atheism and Theism are matters of faith since they are beliefs without evidence.

 

[Cypress]

If it can’t be replicated or verified, it didn’t happen. Sad.

Multiple nations have put probes on Mars looking for signs of life. So far nada. Zero. Zip. Not saying proof won’t be found, but obviously if life ever existed on Mars, it wasn’t thriving like on Earth.

It's discouraging that we have so far found no evidence for ancient life on Mars. It had water, an atmosphere, a temperate climate early in the planets history.

My hope is for the discovery of life on the liquid ocean worlds of the Jovian moons and Enceladus

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Dutch trolls for a reaction

Mason trolls because he’s “off” and lies about ignoring others. LOL

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It's discouraging that we have so far found no evidence for ancient life on Mars. It had water, an atmosphere, a temperate climate early in the planets history.

My hope is for the discovery of life on the liquid ocean worlds of the Jovian moons and Enceladus

If life can’t be found on the next likely candidate to Earth, then the chances of finding it on the moons of Jupiter look slimmer to me.

It appears life is very, very rare of Earth. OTOH, once it takes hold, it’s voracious in how it expands.

If the planets themselves had some form of intelligence and could communicate with each other, would they think Earth has a nasty infection?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That they are the nature of existence



It’s just what exists

No “creation” needed

Currently, it appears our Universe had a clear beginning and is headed for a cold, dead end meaning the end of all life can be predicted.

Why? The Oscillating Universe theory held sway for years and didn’t require a creator. Now that it’s been disproven, the origin of the Universe is a big mystery. A mystery the atheists want to ignore. LOL

 

[evince]

Developing into what?

Like anything else alive


Into what we are

 

[Cypress]

If life can’t be found on the next likely candidate to Earth, then the chances of finding it on the moons of Jupiter look slimmer to me.

It appears life is very, very rare of Earth. OTOH, once it takes hold, it’s voracious in how it expands.

If the planets themselves had some form of intelligence and could communicate with each other, would they think Earth has a nasty infection?

I had a thread a while back where many of us discussed this, and my sense is that life elsewhere in the galaxy is rare, if it exists, and sentient life capable of advanced technology might be almost non-existent elsewhere in the galaxy.

 

[evince]

Currently, it appears our Universe had a clear beginning and is headed for a cold, dead end meaning the end of all life can be predicted.

Why? The Oscillating Universe theory held sway for years and didn’t require a creator. Now that it’s been disproven, the origin of the Universe is a big mystery. A mystery the atheists want to ignore. LOL

Yes

The material world is the nature of what exists


The functions of that material interacts with its self under the rules of how it effects each other

That system had such properties that it’s interactions creates conditions that allowed life to form and expand and evolve


That interaction includes how those conditions cause the matter to consolidate at some point



Black holes and the like


Given enough time it consolidates to a point that the system blows it all to hell again


The big bang



How many times has this system had a big bang?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

And this is how it starts. This is literally the blueprint you use for every single other poster who even mildly disagrees with a point you make.

This does seem to be your obsession/issue.

Why can't we get back to the fun discussions?

Okay, you are unable to be adult enough to acknowledge being wrong.

That happens. It often changes as one matures.

Let's hope.

I wish you had more understanding of logic and how science proceeds from a hypothesis. I've tried to explain it to you, with examples, but clearly you aren't able to understand it.

Too bad.

I❤Irony

You attack and demean those with whom you disagree, Perry, then castigate others who do the same. In what world is that not hypocritical?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I had a thread a while back where many of us discussed this, and my sense is that life elsewhere in the galaxy is rare, if it exists, and sentient life capable of advanced technology might be almost non-existent elsewhere in the galaxy.

…or has a tendency to self-destruct. Aren’t we headed that way ourselves?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Like anything else alive


Into what we are

Seems like a backwards way of doing it.

 

[Cypress]

Currently, it appears our Universe had a clear beginning and is headed for a cold, dead end meaning the end of all life can be predicted.

Why? The Oscillating Universe theory held sway for years and didn’t require a creator. Now that it’s been disproven, the origin of the Universe is a big mystery. A mystery the atheists want to ignore. LOL

My bucket list of questions:

Why did the Big Bang happen?
Why is the universe finely tuned?
Why are there natural laws and mathmatical scaffolding, and where do they come from?
Why is there something rather than nothing?
What caused inert prebiotic chemicals to self organize into complex self replicating cells capable of storing and transmitting vast quantities of information?


I think there might be scientific explanations, but I am prepared for the possibility these are metaphysical questions forever out of reach of human comprehension

 

[evince]

Seems like a backwards way of doing it.

We are the proof the system can support life


It’s just that simple