Barter - only hope for freedom

[Cancel3]

How does a farmer buy a tractor in the barter system?

How does anyone save for retirement in a barter system?

How does a utility lineman send his kids to college?




And don't give me vague "its a better system with real values" speech. Give me serious examples and answers.

 

[Kamala Trump]

How does a farmer buy a tractor in the barter system?

Perhaps guarantee a portion of his crop to the manufacturer, for a period of time?

How does anyone save for retirement in a barter system?

Stock up on goods for use and trade.

How does a utility lineman send his kids to college?

Work out a deal with a university to do work for them. OR collaborate with other electricians in a collective where the collective provides services to the university, in return for education for participating members.

And don't give me vague "its a better system with real values" speech. Give me serious examples and answers.

Done. And it is a better system without the possibility of people getting screwed by inflation.

 

[uscitizen]

sheesh.

AH Barter only works on a local scale. Something has to be used as common money. IN very early rural America it was Whiskey. Washington passed the whiskey act taxing whiskey and the tax had to be paid with ...you guessed it money.

 

[Kamala Trump]

sheesh.

AH Barter only works on a local scale. Something has to be used as common money. IN very early rural America it was Whiskey. Washington passed the whiskey act taxing whiskey and the tax had to be paid with ...you guessed it money.

Everyone lives locally.

 

[uscitizen]

Everyone lives locally.

Everything is not manufactured locally.
Nor are all people local to colleges.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Everything is not manufactured locally.
Nor are all people local to colleges.

But agreements can be made over far distances.

Complex service partnerships can be created. The flaws in the current system are all too clear, unless you're a moron.

 

[uscitizen]

But agreements can be made over far distances.

Complex service partnerships can be created. The flaws in the current system are all too clear, unless you're a moron.

The system you propose is flawed from the get go.
and would be incredibally complex with middle med skimming at all levels. Your bushel of corn would be about a pound by the time it got to the college.

 

[Kamala Trump]

The system you propose is flawed from the get go.

No it's not.

and would be incredibally complex with middle med skimming at all levels. Your bushel of corn would be about a pound by the time it got to the college.

So skimming and exploitation should be the exclusive purview of bankers?

Centralizing opportunities for abuse is not a superior system.


Are you saying a fiat currency system eliminates corruption? the opposite is actually true.

 

[Cancel3]

Perhaps guarantee a portion of his crop to the manufacturer, for a period of time?

Stock up on goods for use and trade.




Work out a deal with a university to do work for them. OR collaborate with other electricians in a collective where the collective provides services to the university, in return for education for participating members.



Done. And it is a better system without the possibility of people getting screwed by inflation.

Guaranteeing a portion of his crops over a period of time is simply creating credit with another commodity.


Stocking up on goods is the same. Except that you would have to physically guard your "stockpile" for your entire life. One break-in by a thief would destroy your entire hope of anything.

And if you provide a service that is not needed by a university your children could never go to college?



The barter system works great on a localized system. But cannot work on a larger system. Unless of course you create the cooperative, which then uses your labor as a form of credit, with no safety net. If you are injured there is no longer anything with which to barter. The physically and mentally handicapped have no way of being cared for whatsoever.

Barter sounds great in a simplistic way, but would create massive starvation by reducing the masses to laborers for a days worth of food.

And there is still the need for services to the masses for which no one wishes to pay. No funding for a police force, except your private army which would be sold to the highest bidder without fear of punishment.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Saying barter is too amenable too corruption is laughable considering what we've witnessed no.

You're the personification of foolishness.

 

[Cancel3]

No one is saying that the current system is without corruption.
But those who lost money in the current system at least have a chance to regain it.

If someone breaks into my home and steals my belongings, I have insurance to cover it. In a barter system I would be wiped out and have to start all over.

 

[uscitizen]

And goods typically have a very limited shelf life guaranteeing no retirement savings.
work till death was the way of humans for thousands of years though.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Guaranteeing a portion of his crops over a period of time is simply creating credit with another commodity.

But it's an actualy commodity. Something of value.

Stocking up on goods is the same. Except that you would have to physically guard your "stockpile" for your entire life. One break-in by a thief would destroy your entire hope of anything.

But now a few billions in bailouts or irresponsible behavior on wallstreet can also render your savings to zero. And you have no chance to prevent it.

And if you provide a service that is not needed by a university your children could never go to college?

Perhaps you would have to contract with some service that the college needs who needs your service. It's admittedly complex, but clearly superior to what we're witnessing now.

The barter system works great on a localized system. But cannot work on a larger system.

Of course it can.

Unless of course you create the cooperative, which then uses your labor as a form of credit, with no safety net.

Safety nets are an illusion.

If you are injured there is no longer anything with which to barter. The physically and mentally handicapped have no way of being cared for whatsoever.

There can still be charitable giving in a barter system.

Barter sounds great in a simplistic way, but would create massive starvation by reducing the masses to laborers for a days worth of food.

A days worth of food is better than starvation.

And there is still the need for services to the masses for which no one wishes to pay. No funding for a police force, except your private army which would be sold to the highest bidder without fear of punishment.

People can pool resources to support a police service, if they so desire.

None of your arguments are a silver bullet. Just admit you're a fascist who can't really think straight.

 

[Cancel3]

Barter works only on a subsistence level existence.

And has no safety net for anyone. If you cannot work you starve. And so does your family.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Barter works only on a subsistence level existence.

You keep claiming that, but there is no rational proof for that assertion.

And has no safety net for anyone. If you cannot work you starve. And so does your family.

There is still room for charity in a barter system. There can still even be forms of collectivization, if that's what gets you off.

 

[Cancel3]

If I am hurt at work, the medical care I receive and the workman's compensation that pays my bills is not an illusion.

The homeowners insurance I have is not an illusion if my home is destroyed.

The fact that no one in this country is starving or allowed to die in the streets is something that would change in a barter system. Anyone incapable of working would not be fed or housed. Charity is not a common commodity, and to suggest that people would donate enough to keep people from starving is to ignore history.

If I have my life's savings in canned goods, a theft removes them completely. There is no recourse except the prayer that they will be found and returned to me.

In the current system, the losses on the market are only temporary. Just as they were in the 70s and 80s. The value returned to those markets.



Under a barter system, if I am hurt I no longer produce, and so I starve. There is no way around it. And pooling resources is just creating the same system with no objective way of determing value.




And if you wish to debate, do so. Making baseless accusations is of no relevance.

 

[Kamala Trump]

If I am hurt at work, the medical care I receive and the workman's compensation that pays my bills is not an illusion.

And your company can still maintain an agreement with healthcare providers to see to your needs.

As it is now, the maximum payout of your policy is probably capped at some level, I guarantee it is not adjusted for inflation.

The homeowners insurance I have is not an illusion if my home is destroyed.

There is nothing about barter which eliminate the concept of insurance.

The fact that no one in this country is starving or allowed to die in the streets is something that would change in a barter system.

Oh wow. So nobody's starving in the world today? Where all nations have adopted the lunacy of fiat currency? Your head is in your butt.

Anyone incapable of working would not be fed or housed. Charity is not a common commodity, and to suggest that people would donate enough to keep people from starving is to ignore history.

No it's not. Throughout history there have been acts of charity. but I'm glad you're so commited to starving indigents. I thought that couldn't happen in your lovely fiat currency system. Actually you do seem to agree with me that it can be used to guarantee starvation.

If I have my life's savings in canned goods, a theft removes them completely. There is no recourse except the prayer that they will be found and returned to me.

But as we see, you can have your life savings is fictitious securities and still lose it all. You're not integrating current events into your worldview properly.

In the current system, the losses on the market are only temporary. Just as they were in the 70s and 80s. The value returned to those markets.

Past performance does not indicate future performance. That's the fine print. Have you read it?

Under a barter system, if I am hurt I no longer produce, and so I starve. There is no way around it. And pooling resources is just creating the same system with no objective way of determing value.

Future care can still be given in a barter system, it just depends on the deal struck. Contracts can still be enforced as well.

And if you wish to debate, do so. Making baseless accusations is of no relevance.

I have whipped your booty once again. thanks for being a great opportunity for me to propagate my thoughts.

 

[Cancel3]

And your company can still maintain an agreement with healthcare providers to see to your needs.

As it is now, the maximum payout of your policy is probably capped at some level, I guarantee it is not adjusted for inflation.

There is nothing about barter which eliminate the concept of insurance.

Oh wow. So nobody's starving in the world today? Where all nations have adopted the lunacy of fiat currency? Your head is in your butt.

No it's not. Throughout history there have been acts of charity. but I'm glad you're so commited to starving indigents. I thought that couldn't happen in your lovely fiat currency system. Actually you do seem to agree with me that it can be used to guarantee starvation.

But as we see, you can have your life savings is fictitious securities and still lose it all. You're not integrating current events into your worldview properly.

Past performance does not indicate future performance. That's the fine print. Have you read it?

Future care can still be given in a barter system, it just depends on the deal struck. Contracts can still be enforced as well.


I have whipped your booty once again. thanks for being a great opportunity for me to propagate my thoughts.

At least the workmans compensation provides a guarantee of medical care and an income. The income will be less, but under a barter system I would have no means of getting either.

And anyone who is starving in the US is doing so of their own volition. There are enough safety nets that it has been basically removed as a cause of death.

Yes, there can be insurance in a barter system. But so far you have had to allow for transport costs of your goods, insurance, payment for police services, and savings for your retirement. And then add in charitable contributions and payment to support the coop that allows you access to colleges or the like. Not much left to eat on, is there?

I have never said the current system is without flaws. It is just a more secure system than a barter system. In a barter system there is little or no interest in future growth, as your focus must be survival. And a barter system's safety nets are almost nonexistent.

Contracts can indeed be enforced. But now another portion of the commodity you provide must be sliced away to provide the arbitration or judicial source and the enforcement force. That commodity you provide is being reduced again.



The current financial mess has shown that there is a huge drop in numbers, not value. The 401k that I have has lost value. But unless I remove the money now I have not lost anything.

Those acts of charity throughout history that you speak so glowingly about were poor houses, work farms and resulted in some of the worst human abuses in history.

But the coop can provide oversight for those too, right? Hmmm, another slice of the value of the commodity just went out the window.

Also, if you look at history, charitable donations varied with the times. In times of natural disastor, the charitable donations would not be available when needed, only later.





A better answer would be a consumption tax like the Fair Tax Act. It would bring the US economy back because jobs would no longer be shipped out but would be shipped in as more and more companies sought a good tax system that favors their companies.

And barter would be alive and well, since the tax is only on new goods and services.

 

[Kamala Trump]

At least the workmans compensation provides a guarantee of medical care and an income. The income will be less, but under a barter system I would have no means of getting either.

There can still be insurance under a barter system. There can still be contracts.

And anyone who is starving in the US is doing so of their own volition. There are enough safety nets that it has been basically removed as a cause of death.

And safety nets are still possible under a barter sytem. DOn't change the subject.

Yes, there can be insurance in a barter system. But so far you have had to allow for transport costs of your goods, insurance, payment for police services, and savings for your retirement. And then add in charitable contributions and payment to support the coop that allows you access to colleges or the like. Not much left to eat on, is there?

There's not much left for many under the current system. You are failing to isolate barter versus fiat currency properly in your arguments. You're comingling issues.

I have never said the current system is without flaws. It is just a more secure system than a barter system.

That security is an illusion. As I said, you're failing to integrate current events into your worldview.

In a barter system there is little or no interest in future growth, as your focus must be survival. And a barter system's safety nets are almost nonexistent.

Ridiculous. There can be growth in a barter system. There can still be safety nets. you have provided zero rationale for your assertions.

Contracts can indeed be enforced. But now another portion of the commodity you provide must be sliced away to provide the arbitration or judicial source and the enforcement force. That commodity you provide is being reduced again.

We pay for those costs now. This is a wash.

The current financial mess has shown that there is a huge drop in numbers, not value. The 401k that I have has lost value. But unless I remove the money now I have not lost anything.

But if it doesn't go up, you will need to take it out at some point, and at that point you will have lost value. And with rampant inflation, who knows what those dollar units will mean in terms of purchasing power. You're exhibiting imbecility.

Those acts of charity throughout history that you speak so glowingly about were poor houses, work farms and resulted in some of the worst human abuses in history.

We have those under fiat currency as well. Your argument is again errorneous and tangential.

But the coop can provide oversight for those too, right? Hmmm, another slice of the value of the commodity just went out the window.

Administrative costs are a reality in any system.

Also, if you look at history, charitable donations varied with the times. In times of natural disastor, the charitable donations would not be available when needed, only later.

Thanks for another irrelevancy.

A better answer would be a consumption tax like the Fair Tax Act. It would bring the US economy back because jobs would no longer be shipped out but would be shipped in as more and more companies sought a good tax system that favors their companies.

Companies can be based here and still outsource jobs. If we tie tax breaks to keeping work in the country, then you're cooking with gas. I will bet you a zillion dollars USD this stipulation will not be in the agreement.

And barter would be alive and well, since the tax is only on new goods and services.

Barter rocks.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Asshate, you up for my offer?