Bottom 20% spend $1.90 for $1.00 in wages

Yes, you will probably make money. I can’t make money on people’s suffering, dying and starving. My brother tried to get me to buy a stock three years ago. It was for a company that made those reinforced armor vehicles. He said they were getting a contract. He made a lot of money on it, but I didn’t buy it. I thought that if I made money on war, it could bring me nothing but grief.

I know you won’t grasp that, or believe it, or understand it. But it is how it is.
WTF? I imagine the number of people starving to death in the US can be attributed to abuse and neglect. But there are no substantial numbers of dying starving suffering people in this country. There may be in other countries but half the time it is their own government starving them and not from lack of food. 7% of the homeowners in this country are in default. That means 93% of the others are doing what needs to be done to pay their housing bills. In most communities if you are truly below poverty level your kids qualify for free breakfast and lunch in schools. If they are not school age they qualify for WIC and AFDC. Suffering and starving do death in this country are not widespread problems. Christ we don't have the unemployment we had in the late 70's. People can find work. I know a guy that was suspended from the practice of law for a year and worked at a chesse factory. You just have to WANT to work. Or move to where the jobs are.
 
WTF? I imagine the number of people starving to death in the US can be attributed to abuse and neglect. But there are no substantial numbers of dying starving suffering people in this country. There may be in other countries but half the time it is their own government starving them and not from lack of food. 7% of the homeowners in this country are in default. That means 93% of the others are doing what needs to be done to pay their housing bills. In most communities if you are truly below poverty level your kids qualify for free breakfast and lunch in schools. If they are not school age they qualify for WIC and AFDC. Suffering and starving do death in this country are not widespread problems. Christ we don't have the unemployment we had in the late 70's. People can find work. I know a guy that was suspended from the practice of law for a year and worked at a chesse factory. You just have to WANT to work. Or move to where the jobs are.

Soc, this is a global emergency. Skyrocketing food costs, food shortages, and just in the past couple of days, hoarding has begun.
I mean, I assume a certain level of familiarity with current events here.
 
Soc, this is a global emergency. Skyrocketing food costs, food shortages, and just in the past couple of days, hoarding has begun.
I mean, I assume a certain level of familiarity with current events here.
People starving in other countries is a tragedy but not one that affects us here. There are enough of you feeling guilty about living in the US for the rest of us. I don't feel guilty about living here. I don't feel guilty that I had lunch today and in other countries people went to bed hungry. Like I said, if many of those countries, like the Sudan and Liberia, their governments are starving them. You wanna talk about dropping UN sanctions on arming people so they can fight for their own freedoms we can talk. You wanna talk about the US cutting off military aid to countries that do that, I am on your side. I don't invest in ADM or other corporate farms because I don't like corporate farming. But the unfortunate truth is that family farming has quit being profitable for the family doing the farming. We are not a world government, I can't worry about people outside my country starving. I have to worry about feeding my kids.
 
Seriously, what does all of that have to do with my statement that I wouldn’t feel good making money off of people starving? Did you think that only Americans are people? I wouldn’t feel right about it, no matter where they live. WTF do you have such a problem with that? I guess I will keep my own moral council, and you can keep yours. What do you think?
 
Seriously, what does all of that have to do with my statement that I wouldn’t feel good making money off of people starving? Did you think that only Americans are people? I wouldn’t feel right about it, no matter where they live. WTF do you have such a problem with that? I guess I will keep my own moral council, and you can keep yours. What do you think?
Sounds great but this thread is about the "poor" in america. Not the poor anywhere else. The poor here have more than the poor have in just about any country in the world. If you want to make the term poor mean TRULY poor then I agree with Damo, it will be much easier for the government to help get them back on their feet. But anyone that receives AFDC or WIC and has Cable/Satelite television or a cell phone should be taken off. Those two expences right there are at least 80 dollars exta per month that could feed them.
 
Sounds great but this thread is about the "poor" in america. Not the poor anywhere else. The poor here have more than the poor have in just about any country in the world. If you want to make the term poor mean TRULY poor then I agree with Damo, it will be much easier for the government to help get them back on their feet. But anyone that receives AFDC or WIC and has Cable/Satelite television or a cell phone should be taken off. Those two expences right there are at least 80 dollars exta per month that could feed them.

Well, I got off the precise subject of it while talking to Top, sorry. Maybe the new administrator will punish me. :)
 
Well, I got off the precise subject of it while talking to Top, sorry. Maybe the new administrator will punish me. :)
Oh I see what you are doing, we are the middle of a political conversation and then you throw me off with talk about punishing you. You naughty little minx you.
 
I answered it several times, when considering the poor in America, comparing the reported numbers of "poor" in America and their living conditions, with those Americans actually consider poor and their living conditions is relative to the discussion.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and again, you've failed to illustrate how your comparisons address the problems of poverty in AMERICA.
 
Um, nooo dumbass, what it shows is that because credit has been so cheap, and easily obtained, the bottom 20%, along with the middle class btw, have all been spending far more than they earn.

The credit’s dried up, didn’t you hear?

Do you have any idea what that means going forward? Any idea?

What? They spend almost twice what they earn? That's crazy. I was thinking he was talking about handouts or something, but, well, you do make more sense. I had no idea the credit problem was so bad. The only debt my family has is my sisters carnote.
 
darla must not have even taken any kind of finance high school or otherwise.
What is shows is that the bottom 20% is getting earned income credit, food stamps, and all kinds of other give aways that allows them to spend almost $2 for every $1 they make. If you look at credit card debt they balances are as expected not very high reletive say to a shoe fiend like darla.:pke:
 
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and again, you've failed to illustrate how your comparisons address the problems of poverty in AMERICA.
Maybe one of the points is that many of whom we classify as poor should not be classified as poor.

Now there are people in the U.S. who are in a bad way. Those people need help, and I am all for helping them, as are most people involved in this discussion.

But then there are those who are NOT in a bad way, but somehow our system classifies them as poor also, primarily because they are not spending their income wisely. If a household needs help putting food on the table, what the HELL are they doing paying for cable, in many cases including premium channels? Why do they even have a TV? Sell the damned thing and buy some groceries.

Classifying people as poor who are not truly poor results two major problems. First, it stresses assistance programs by providing assistance that is, essentially, wasted. That assistance could go in larger amounts to those who truly need it, instead of being stretch to transparency providing food and rent assistance to people so they can watch HBO.

Second, it simply encourages continued poor spending habits, thus delaying the effort at giving people a hand up. The more we give in assistance, the more is wasted. People receive food stamps, and go out shopping to purchase types of food many middle income people avoid as too expensive. They receive rent assistance, leaving their income free to buy cable TV and other non-necessities.

Mean while those that really need the assistance are doing without even the base necessities because our resources are tied up assisting people who are not really poor.
 
The Job market has NOT dried up. We have 5.1% unemployment. That is not a dried up job market. Some places in the US, like where I live have a glut of jobs that can't be filled because there is no one qualified to fill them. If you OWN your own house you are not poor. If you have cable and a dvd player and television you are not POOR. You may be low income, you may live month to month but you are not POOR. The poor in this country live in homeless shelters or their cars or under bridges. Get rid of cable and in most places you have anywhere between 30 and 100 dollars per month to spend. Get rid of cell phones and get a land line with local calls only and you will save money. If you have more than one car, sell one. I live near the border. We have colonias on this side of the border. The people that live there have no electricity, no sewage, damn sure no AC and we get into the 100's here on a regular basis. Those people are poor. People who live in public housing here have AC and electric and water. I know there are poor in this country but we need to re-evaluate what is poor. You should have access to housing but cable, phone service and a car are NOT necessities. They are luxury items.

I can do the Tango, but only with the body. Not with Verbal dancing.
 
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and again, you've failed to illustrate how your comparisons address the problems of poverty in AMERICA.
Rubbish. It shows that "poor" is defined by the area that people live in, and that "poor" here is quite different than the abject poverty found among the "poor" elsewhere. When discussing "poor" it is necessary to define what "poor" is, using examples is the best way to show what people think "poor" is. I posted a link to an article that helped define that by giving the information on what most Americans think poor is as found by the results of polling. But since you refuse to read the information you tend to make silly arguments like this one that point again to the fact that you are deliberately keeping yourself in ignorance of what I am speaking of, so much for an open mind.

That American "poor" do not live in the abject poverty found elsewhere suggests that Americans consistently give to the point were even the "poor" among us can afford luxuries that no poor afford elsewhere including larger living space than even those who are not poor (on average) in Europe. Yet we are consistently told we are "uncompassionate" and other inanities.

While there are people here in the US that are in poverty, even poverty to the level of hunger, it is rare and among a tiny percentage of what is defined as "poor" by the reporting agency. By all means let's get these people food, and quickly. Nobody should go hungry in the US. We need to find a better way to get those particular people help quickly.

1. People in the US think people who need food are poor. (According to the story and the stats that you admit to refusing to read, open minds tend to have a bit more information than those that are deliberately closed).

2. Comparing what the government reports as "poor" in the US with people who are known to actually need food is relevant to the discussion. That we have to go outside the US to find large numbers of "poor" doesn't change that finding such groups is relevant to the discussion of poor people.

Deliberately ignoring the relevance doesn't make you "smart" or even make other people confused it just makes you look obtuse. And ignoring human nature and ability to dismiss a problem that they believe to be exaggerated doesn't change that Americans do just that and exaggerating the "poverty" of Americans will get a large group of them to do just that. It is likely that they won't even vote because they are sick of one of the parties exaggerating "problems" for them.

Suggesting that because they aren't Americans they can't be relevant to the discussion of how we define poor people is simply an attempt to make a universal argument more Amerocentric and suggest that we should redefine poor to go outside what Americans tend to think poor is to fit what you want it to be rather than what Americans themselves define it as. I simply drag the conversation back to what Americans define poor as.

And yes, people are less poor if they have stuff, it is how poor is measured.

Your form of "argument" in this thread is:

"I refuse to read the article we are talking about, but I intend to talk about it nonetheless!"

If you refuse to read the article, don't try to participate.
 
Maybe one of the points is that many of whom we classify as poor should not be classified as poor.

Now there are people in the U.S. who are in a bad way. Those people need help, and I am all for helping them, as are most people involved in this discussion.

But then there are those who are NOT in a bad way, but somehow our system classifies them as poor also, primarily because they are not spending their income wisely. If a household needs help putting food on the table, what the HELL are they doing paying for cable, in many cases including premium channels? Why do they even have a TV? Sell the damned thing and buy some groceries.

Classifying people as poor who are not truly poor results two major problems. First, it stresses assistance programs by providing assistance that is, essentially, wasted. That assistance could go in larger amounts to those who truly need it, instead of being stretch to transparency providing food and rent assistance to people so they can watch HBO.

Second, it simply encourages continued poor spending habits, thus delaying the effort at giving people a hand up. The more we give in assistance, the more is wasted. People receive food stamps, and go out shopping to purchase types of food many middle income people avoid as too expensive. They receive rent assistance, leaving their income free to buy cable TV and other non-necessities.

Mean while those that really need the assistance are doing without even the base necessities because our resources are tied up assisting people who are not really poor.

At least that's a coherent argument, although I would rely on institutions, groups, and organizations who support, work with, and monitor the poor to make judgements on who is actually poor. I seriously doubt the statistics from institutions like the Heritage Foundation and I seriously doubt that many poor people are watching premium cable channels, that 40% own their own homes, that 30% have 2 cars, or that a third have automatic dishwashers or have 2 rooms per person.

That's a report concucted to suit an agenda, not one designed to chronicle the life of poor Americans.

Here is an important caveat to that report which you may have missed ...

The Census Bureau defines an individual as poor if his or her family income falls below certain specified income thresholds. These thresholds vary by family size. In 2002, a family of four was deemed poor if its annual income fell below $18,556; a family of three was deemed poor if annual income was below $14,702. There are a number of problems with the Census Bureau's poverty figures: Census undercounts income, ignores assets accumulated in prior years, and disregards non-cash welfare such as food stamps and public housing in its official count of income. However, the most important problem with Census figures is that, even if a family's income falls below the official poverty thresholds, the family's actual living conditions are likely to be far higher than the image most Americans have in mind when they hear the word "poverty."


This report isn't talking about poor people or poverty, just those who have fallen belown almost $19,000.

If you want to know about hunger and poverty in America, go here ...
http://www.secondharvest.org/learn_about_hunger/fact_sheet/
 
However, the most important problem with Census figures is that, even if a family's income falls below the official poverty thresholds, the family's actual living conditions are likely to be far higher than the image most Americans have in mind when they hear the word "poverty."

This is what I have been saying. This disconnect can work against what you attempt to do.
 
This is what I have been saying. This disconnect can work against what you attempt to do.

Yeah, we know. The editorializing by an uber-conservative outlet. You've been told five times that it's BULLSHIt and since we ain't buying it, why on earth would we be steered by its helpful recommondations??
 
Rubbish. It shows that "poor" is defined by the area that people live in, and that "poor" here is quite different than the abject poverty found among the "poor" elsewhere. When discussing "poor" it is necessary to define what "poor" is, using examples is the best way to show what people think "poor" is. I posted a link to an article that helped define that by giving the information on what most Americans think poor is as found by the results of polling. But since you refuse to read the information you tend to make silly arguments like this one that point again to the fact that you are deliberately keeping yourself in ignorance of what I am speaking of, so much for an open mind.

That American "poor" do not live in the abject poverty found elsewhere suggests that Americans consistently give to the point were even the "poor" among us can afford luxuries that no poor afford elsewhere including larger living space than even those who are not poor (on average) in Europe. Yet we are consistently told we are "uncompassionate" and other inanities.

While there are people here in the US that are in poverty, even poverty to the level of hunger, it is rare and among a tiny percentage of what is defined as "poor" by the reporting agency. By all means let's get these people food, and quickly. Nobody should go hungry in the US. We need to find a better way to get those particular people help quickly.

1. People in the US think people who need food are poor. (According to the story and the stats that you admit to refusing to read, open minds tend to have a bit more information than those that are deliberately closed).

2. Comparing what the government reports as "poor" in the US with people who are known to actually need food is relevant to the discussion. That we have to go outside the US to find large numbers of "poor" doesn't change that finding such groups is relevant to the discussion of poor people.

Deliberately ignoring the relevance doesn't make you "smart" or even make other people confused it just makes you look obtuse. And ignoring human nature and ability to dismiss a problem that they believe to be exaggerated doesn't change that Americans do just that and exaggerating the "poverty" of Americans will get a large group of them to do just that. It is likely that they won't even vote because they are sick of one of the parties exaggerating "problems" for them.

Suggesting that because they aren't Americans they can't be relevant to the discussion of how we define poor people is simply an attempt to make a universal argument more Amerocentric and suggest that we should redefine poor to go outside what Americans tend to think poor is to fit what you want it to be rather than what Americans themselves define it as. I simply drag the conversation back to what Americans define poor as.

And yes, people are less poor if they have stuff, it is how poor is measured.

Your form of "argument" in this thread is:

"I refuse to read the article we are talking about, but I intend to talk about it nonetheless!"

If you refuse to read the article, don't try to participate.

See my above post to Good Luck and pay particular attention to the caveat.

It appears that you didn't read the article, because the caveat validates exactly what I'm talking about. YOUR article isn't about poor people and it doesn't address the needs of the poor, or even chronicle them correctly.

There are REAL poor people in America and comparing them to Ethiopians is nothing more than a dodge from taking a serious look at the problem.
 
This is what I have been saying. This disconnect can work against what you attempt to do.

Only if one is not serious about addressing the problem.

There are a plethora of credible organizations from which one can correctly ascertain the state of poverty and poor in America, and there are a variety of ways to work with those institutions on addressing the problem.

John Edwards has good proposals.
 
Yeah, we know. The editorializing by an uber-conservative outlet. You've been told five times that it's BULLSHIt and since we ain't buying it, why on earth would we be steered by its helpful recommondations??
I got that quote from BAC's.

So, you might have "known" that was what I was saying. But it sure wasn't universal.
 
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