Can there be a proof of God?

[Concart]

I do not think so.

All proofs of God presuppose you already believe.

Not unless he appears in Times Square and lets scientists measure his shoe size. There is no proof for a supernatural posit. And there never can be.

 

[saltydancin]

Okay, no proof of God. No problem with you believing.

While Russia's rootin' tootin' Putin's current relentless annihilation of Ukraine's fabricated Nazis & all those crooks on Capital Hill continuing malfeasance with over 60 years of under color of law thieving old glorys presented by Eisenhower arsonists interpretation of "one nation under God with equal justice under law" Christiananality pedophilia "man is God" tautology is proof of God believing existence of suicidal super egos sociopsychopathilogical homicidal human farming in their Peter Principle pyramid scheme of survival of the fittest fascists....

 

[ZenMode]

Yes, that is what I am talking about.

As with many things, Christians tend to see what they want to see and explain away anything they don't. For a Christian, the weed I pulled in my front yard was "proof" of God's existence. Never mind that, in Biblical times, God spoke directly to people from the heavens on a regular basis, sent himself to earth to perform miracles and had angels talking to people often. Apparently God got tired of putting forth any effort into acquiring/keeping his believers.... though he apparently still holds eternal torture over our heads if we don't believe.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Why is free will important?

Without it you are nothing but a puppet or slave.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That is really bad theology.
According to mainstream Christian theology going all the way back to Augustine, free will was given to humans by God. Supposedly, free will is why there is sin and corruption in the world, because humans are free to choose.

And, if God showed up and made a proclamation to the contrary, are the one that will argue with God about it? The point I'm making is once there's absolute, positive proof of God there's no more choice about believing or not. I suppose you could deny God's existence after that, but you'd be insane in doing so.

 

[archives]

I do not think so.

All proofs of God presuppose you already believe.

No, Aquinas was wrong, Augustine right, it is a matter of faith

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That is really bad theology.
According to mainstream Christian theology going all the way back to Augustine, free will was given to humans by God. Supposedly, free will is why there is sin and corruption in the world, because humans are free to choose.

Agreed. God has the power to make us do but doesn't...which is why modern Christianity and I disagree on the concept of a "personal God" that grants wishes to those who pray hard enough.

IMO, God is designed the Universe and all of its laws then has let things run their course without interference. To interfere would be breaking the rules and, therefore, cheat. I believe God is honest and never cheats.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

As with many things, Christians tend to see what they want to see and explain away anything they don't. For a Christian, the weed I pulled in my front yard was "proof" of God's existence. Never mind that, in Biblical times, God spoke directly to people from the heavens on a regular basis, sent himself to earth to perform miracles and had angels talking to people often. Apparently God got tired of putting forth any effort into acquiring/keeping his believers.... though he apparently still holds eternal torture over our heads if we don't believe.

View attachment 22529

...and in Buddhism you'll come back as a cockroach?

 

[BidenPresident]

Without it you are nothing but a puppet or slave.

How would I know the difference?

 

[BidenPresident]

As with many things, Christians tend to see what they want to see and explain away anything they don't. For a Christian, the weed I pulled in my front yard was "proof" of God's existence. Never mind that, in Biblical times, God spoke directly to people from the heavens on a regular basis, sent himself to earth to perform miracles and had angels talking to people often. Apparently God got tired of putting forth any effort into acquiring/keeping his believers.... though he apparently still holds eternal torture over our heads if we don't believe.

View attachment 22529

Well said.

 

[BidenPresident]

You obviously won't believe in God no matter what because you don't want to.

Not my point. I am only saying there cannot be proof of God.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

And, if God showed up and made a proclamation to the contrary, are the one that will argue with God about it? The point I'm making is once there's absolute, positive proof of God there's no more choice about believing or not. I suppose you could deny God's existence after that, but you'd be insane in doing so.

Most people can't comprehend the size of our own country much less God.

If Jesus showed up at Times Square, how many people would want him executed for blasphemy? Most of the Evangelistas? Prosperity Christians?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Not my point. I am only saying there cannot be proof of God.

Agreed. There's zero evidence of the supernatural, magic or anything beyond the physical universe.

 

[BidenPresident]

People usually conflate the word proof with the word evidence.

I did not do that. The topic of the thread is proof.

 

[Jarod]

Infer it, maybe. But what is your point?

My point is that even if you don’t feel god within yourself, you can possibly infer gods existence in others.

 

[BidenPresident]

No, Aquinas was wrong, Augustine right, it is a matter of faith

Augustine gave proofs of God.

 

[BidenPresident]

My point is that even if you don’t feel god within yourself, you can possibly infer gods existence in others.

No, only that I know you tell me your experience.

 

[BidenPresident]

No, Aquinas was wrong, Augustine right, it is a matter of faith

Augustine:

“Now you had conceded that if I proved the existence of something higher than
our minds, you would admit that it was God, as long as there was nothing higher
still. I accepted this concession, and said that it would be enough if I proved that
there is something higher than our minds. For if there is something more
excellent than the truth, then that is God; if not, the truth itself is God. So in either
case you cannot deny that God exists.” (2.15, pg. 58

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/fcw1

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. God has the power to make us do but doesn't...which is why modern Christianity and I disagree on the concept of a "personal God" that grants wishes to those who pray hard enough.

IMO, God is designed the Universe and all of its laws then has let things run their course without interference. To interfere would be breaking the rules and, therefore, cheat. I believe God is honest and never cheats.

^ a classical Diest approach.

What ever purposeful forces underlie creation, I feel that it is probably unfathomable to human cognition, and exists outside what we think of as time and space.

I feel like the Abrahamistic God, the Dao, Brahman, are just human attempts to give a name to it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

^ a classical Diest approach.

What ever purposeful forces underlie creation, I feel that it is probably unfathomable to human cognition, and exists outside what we think of as time and space.

I feel like the Abrahamistic God, the Dao, Brahman, are just human attempts to give a name to it.

Agreed on all points.

In many ways religions resemble the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant. They all have elements of truth and wisdom, but some of their proponents are not thinking clearly.