I agree...there are none.
But that is not the question posed.
Can there be proof?
Without a doubt there CAN be...IF THERE IS A GOD AND IF THE GOD WISHES TO GIVE UNDENIABLE PROOF.
Can there be a proof of God?
- Thread starter BidenPresident
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I agree...there are none.
But that is not the question posed.
Can there be proof?
Without a doubt there CAN be...IF THERE IS A GOD AND IF THE GOD WISHES TO GIVE UNDENIABLE PROOF.
I am not saying THERE IS PROOF. I am answering the question "CAN there be proof."
BidenPresident
Verified User
I see. Logically possible but there never has been one. Okay, agree.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
If forces external to our physical universe care to get involved, yes,, there might be some proof.
Based on past evidence, I think the odds of that happening are ZERO.
Aquinas had good deductive reasoning up until he provided his conclusion. An uncaused causer, a prime mover is hard to refute. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the uncaused causer happens to be an Abrahamic God.
BidenPresident
Verified User
The Prime Mover is not a cause of the physical universe and not a Creator.
Aquinas said reason does not tell us the world was created and therefore a matter of faith by the Church.
I think the language being used in this thread is inaccurate
I am dubious that the human mind is even designed to derive or understand proof.
Deductive reasoning relies on first principles which are almost always assumptions in themselves.
Inductive reasoning doesn't even attempt to provide proof. It makes probabalistic inferences based on empirical observation and sensory perception.
We don't even have proof of general relativity, the big bang, or Mendelian evolution. We have theories to explain observations, but theories are always provisional and subject to change or modification.
There might be some iron clad proofs in mathematics. But even the Pythagorean theorem fails once you move
beyond Euclidean space.
The evidence for a purposefully created cosmos is out there (the fine structure constant, fine tuning of the universe), but it doesn't even come close to being definitive and it does not exclude alternative hypotheses.
If forces external to our physical universe care to get involved, yes,, there might be some proof.
Based on past evidence, I think the odds of that happening are ZERO.
Based on all things considered...I think the odds of that happening are very close to ZERO.
I was not commenting on the odds, DU, I simply was saying it could happen. It is NOT an impossibility.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Everyone but you understood it.
Correct.
He said (sorta):
"In the world, we can see that at least some things are changing. Whatever is changing is being changed by something else. If that by which it is changing is itself changed, then it too is being changed by something else. But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing. This everyone understands to be God."
If he had ended that "proof" with the words, "This everyone understands to be an unknown"...he would have hit the nail squarely on its head.
Same with all the other proofs.
But your still wrong as both a matter of language and a matter of logic.
Asking for proof is the wrong question
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
It's possible we could be invaded by little green men from Mars or see the Earth destroyed for a Vogon hyperspace bypass, but I'd bet against it.
Past evidence and research shows no indication of supernatural powers or anything beyond the physical universe.
BidenPresident
Verified User
"Can there be proof for God."
You are the only one on the thread who does not understand that question.
I understand what you are saying...and agree in part.
BUT IF THERE ACTUALLY IS A GOD...AND A PERSONAL GOD...AND THAT GOD WANTED HUMANITY TO KNOW WITH CERTAINTY THAT IT EXISTED...
...IT COULD FURNISH THAT CERTAINTY.
If you do not agree with that, tell me why and we can discuss it.
I think proof is not being asked for.
The question is clear to me...and I have answered it as I see the answer to be. Some may disagree.
If you are asserting there is no way it could possibly happen...give me your argument and we can discuss it.
I understand your intent just fine.
You didn't commit any crime, but it's the wrong question.
In the scientific community, the word 'proof' is not tossed around so lightly.
The right question is if there is any evidence for God.
BidenPresident
Verified User
You absolutely do not understand my intent.
Again, you are the only person on the thread who does not understand the question.
I am not sure a higher divinity could provide proof that would convince everybody. Walking on water, parting the Sea, turning water into wine could be interpreted by many people as magic tricks, optical illusion, or the technology of an advanced alien civilization. I am not convinced that all seven billion people on Earth would leap to the conclusion it was unequivocal and ironclad proof to be the Abrahamic God.
Your objective is clear, but language, logic, and clarity still matter.
That was the lesson of Socrates.
You are asking the wrong question, because asking for proof outside of mathematics is setting an impossibly high standard
No one can give you proof of God, of the Big Bang, or of the evolutionary origin of Homo Sapiens.
If you asked the question if there was any evidence for God, I could answer that yes there was, but it is not remotely close to definitive and it does not exclude alternative hypotheses.