Can there be a proof of God?

Cypress said:
Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
So...you think that a god who could make the hundreds of billions of galaxies...each filled with hundreds of billions of suns...would not be able to give incontrovertible proof of its existence.

Okay. What can I say?

I think you are doing what theists do, Cypress...coming from a position of supposed certainty that no gods exist...except they come from a position of supposed certainty that at least one does exist.

Nothing wrong with either side making blind guesses...and pretending they have value.
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I'm agnostic. I am trying to understand the nature of proof implied by the OP. Because I am dubious of the very concept of proof outside of mathematics.

To begin with, it seems like God would have to have an ego to perform extraordinary acts to convince the world of his presence. What if God is more like the God of the Deists, universalists, or Spinoza's God?

What's an example of something God could do to prove to seven billion people he is the Abrahamistic God, rather than some advanced technology from alien civilizations? It would be nice to have a specific example of how that would work..

And how would God convince billions of Hindus, Buddhists, Jains Zoroastrians, and animists that any demonstration of miraculous power is actually the Christian God, and not any other spiritual manifestation associated with other cultural traditions?

I am just trying to understand how it would work.
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to both of you......and what if God simply chose to create a situation where people chose to believe in him based upon a choice to love him rather than because they had no other possibilities?......if you were God would you want to have an eternity with pre-programed robots?.....

your arguments are "COULD God have proven his existence if he chose to.......the thread is about "HAS God provided proof of his existence that is currently accessible"........you waste your time arguing with each other........
 
PostmodernProphet said:
to both of you......and what if God simply chose to create a situation where people chose to believe in him based upon a choice to love him rather than because they had no other possibilities?......if you were God would you want to have an eternity with pre-programed robots?.....

your arguments are "COULD God have proven his existence if he chose to.......the thread is about "HAS God provided proof of his existence that is currently accessible"........you waste your time arguing with each other........
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Who's arguing? Articulating opinions and asking questions is a dialectic, not an argument.

There might be posts here containing grievances, annoyance, and personal digs at other posters, but none of those posts belong to me.

I personally don't think God, Vishnu, Brahman, the Dao, or any of the rest are going to perform magic tricks to prove their existence, assuming they even exist..

And I don't think the concept of proof is as easy, unambiguous, and clear cut as is being assumed.
 
Defender of Honor said:
Yes,the history of the Jews
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No, evidence is something that can be either reproduced, or confirmed. The stories in the Hebrew bible do not achieve that evidentiary level

The best argument the theists have is the fine tuning of the physical constants of the universe. But even that is not really convincing evidence, because it cannot rule out alternative hypotheses.
 
Frank Apisa said:
My personal position on the question of gods is:

I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect that gods cannot exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...so I don't.

(When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)

Obviously an agnostic position. So we are both coming from an agnostic position.

I could care less about whether you suppose there are no proof outside mathematics; whether or not any god that might exist has an "ego" or not; whether it is the Abrahamic god or not; or any of the other concerns you are raising.

The question is, "Can there be a proof of God?"...and I am saying YES THERE CAN BE IF THERE IS A GOD. THE GOD CAN REVEAL ITSELF IN AN UNAMBIGUOUS WAY IF IT CHOOSES TO DO SO.

Jesus H. Christ, Cypress...what in hell is your problem with that?
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Okay, I was just asking if you knew what manner this proof would take. I just thought if we were talking about proof we would have some idea of what proof would look like.


But I get what you're saying in theory.
 
Cypress said:
Okay, I was just asking if you knew what manner this proof would take. I just thought if we were talking about proof we would have some idea of what proof would look like.


But I get what you're saying in theory.
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IF there is a "maker" of the entire universe and all the complexity of it...

...making humans understand without doubt that it exists would be a piece of cake.

If you are asking what a mere human might guess about the nature of how that would be done...you just are not groking the nature of my reply.

Are there any gods? I HAVE NO IDEA.

What would be the nature of a "proof?" I HAVE NO IDEA.
 
Frank Apisa said:
IF there is a "maker" of the entire universe and all the complexity of it...

...making humans understand without doubt that it exists would be a piece of cake.

If you are asking what a mere human might guess about the nature of how that would be done...you just are not groking the nature of my reply.

Are there any gods? I HAVE NO IDEA.

What would be the nature of a "proof?" I HAVE NO IDEA.
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I think we have a very good idea of what nature of proof God is likely to give, because we have a written testament of it. Jesus is reputed to have performed many miracles in the bible.

On the other hand, I don't think Christian Theology envisions a scenario in which God does something that forcibly compels people to believe in him, because that contradicts the Christian doctrine of free will


I agree with you that there is no convincing evidence of God, I don't know if God exists, and even if it did it might be completely unfathomable for my human cognition to even grasp.
 
Cypress said:
No, evidence is something that can be either reproduced, or confirmed. The stories in the Hebrew bible do not achieve that evidentiary level

The best argument the theists have is the fine tuning of the physical constants of the universe. But even that is not really convincing evidence, because it cannot rule out alternative hypotheses.
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Nothing will convince you ,because you don't seek God!
And you'll never find God till you seek God.
 
Cypress said:
I think we have a very good idea of what nature of proof God is likely to give, because we have a written testament of it. Jesus is reputed to have performed many miracles in the bible.

On the other hand, I don't think Christian Theology envisions a scenario in which God does something that forcibly compels people to believe in him, because that contradicts the Christian doctrine of free will


I agree with you that there is no convincing evidence of God, I don't know if God exists, and even if it did it might be completely unfathomable for my human cognition to even grasp.
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You'll never know till you seek God.
 
Mr.Mason said:
Nothing will convince you ,because you don't seek God!
And you'll never find God till you seek God.
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You are correct.

My guess is you have not put the effort into seeking Zeus.

If you did...REALLY, TRULY DID...

...you'd find him.
 
Mr.Mason said:
Exactly
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Mr.Mason said:
Nothing will convince you ,because you don't seek God!
And you'll never find God till you seek God.
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Actually, I have made a lot of progress in the last 20 years trying to get some indirect glimpses and insights into any ultimate truths, but my experience might be more along the lines of Spinoza's God rather than Abraham's God.
 
Cypress said:
Actually, I have made a lot of progress in the last 20 years trying to get some indirect glimpses and insights into any ultimate truths, but my experience might be more along the lines of Spinoza's God rather than Abraham's God.
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Agreed on Spinoza's God...also Einstein's. :)

https://mindmatters.ai/2021/12/einstein-believed-in-spinozas-god-who-is-that-god/

Note re Einstein and Spinoza’s God: “Einstein’s answer to a New York rabbi clears things up a bit. The rabbi cabled him in 1929 to ask him if he believed in God. Einstein replied, ‘I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings’…

“Spinoza used the provocative formulation Deus sive natura—“God, or nature”—but he actually regarded nature as just the visible, comprehensible aspect of God’s infinite, incomprehensible being. One consequence is that everything that happens in nature, and everything that nature’s lawful order dishes out to us personally, is necessary—the way the conclusion of a logical or mathematical demonstration is necessary.” – Lawrence Klepp, Washington Examiner (January 23, 2012).
 
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