Capitalism Is EVIL!

[Into the Night]

The governments of Europe, America and other civilized nations kept reserves of precious metals that would be coined into currency and released or withdrawn as the government saw fit.

It was very much fiat currency.

Uh...no. I'm frankly surprised to hear you make this argument, particularly after touting Austrian economics.

Precious metals have inherent value. They do not need to be in the shape of a coin to have that value. The coin has value BECAUSE it's made of precious metal, not the reverse.

To say precious metals have value because a government minted it into coins is a reversal fallacy.

The word 'dollar' stems from the word 'thaler' (a shortened version of Joachimsthaler), a silver coin popular all over Europe for a while. BOTH are a unit of weight, not value.

Money is merely a medium of exchange (barter). It is two things:
1) A representation of value (you can buy and sell with it as a medium of exchange).
2) A unit of account (you can set a price with it).

This applies to ALL money, whether it's gold, silver, clam shells, tree leaves, square stones with holes in them, Bitcoin, or a fiat currency.

The problem with all fiat currencies is the same. They lose value representation (it takes more of them for the same barter transaction), and they can cease to be a currency as a result.

 

[Uncensored2008]

minting a piece of metal for uniformity and recognition does not make it fiat

Manipulating the supply in the market of said coins, does.

The United States used to mint $20 gold coins. How did the value of the coin become $20? Through supply and demand, the number of coins released into the market was set to ensure that the market value of the coins was $20. Monetary policy, long before the Fed. Further, consider "silver certificates," which promised the value in silver for paper currency upon demand. Did the promise change the fact that the government printed money with no backing in metals? Many libertarians think that was backed currency. Fractional reserves of silver proved them wrong. (which is still done with pure paper currency.)

 

[Uncensored2008]

I love how by decree you decide something has no value

I said nothing of the sort. Gold has a value of $2,425 an ounce in today's market.

What I said is gold has little INTRINSIC value. It has value because we as a society decree it to have value.

it's like fiat intelligence

You were not the one I would have guessed to devolve into ad hom.

 

[zymurgy]

Manipulating the supply in the market of said coins, does.

The United States used to mint $20 gold coins. How did the value of the coin become $20? Through supply and demand, the number of coins released into the market was set to ensure that the market value of the coins was $20. Monetary policy, long before the Fed. Further, consider "silver certificates," which promised the value in silver for paper currency upon demand. Did the promise change the fact that the government printed money with no backing in metals? Many libertarians think that was backed currency. Fractional reserves of silver proved them wrong. (which is still done with pure paper currency.)

do you have reading comprehension problems?

I said it isn't inherently fiat. Yes - when a government, like ours decrees things, that makes it fiat

but metal does not need to be fiat. gold and other metals has long had a value without a government decree - including today.

 

[Into the Night]

Gold was sought after in ancient cultures because it was soft and easy to work into elaborate decorative shapes. That's it. You can't eat it, you can't burn it for fuel, it's no good for tools or armor. Gold has value only because of societal agreement that it has value. In our society, we can work much harder metals into just as fancy of shapes. Tungsten has much more intrinsic value than gold.

Gold has value not because of it's workability, but because it's easy to measure it's purity.
It does not have value because it's in the shape of a coin. It has value because you can buy and sell things with it..that societal agreement you mentioned.

Tungsten is not easily checked for purity at the point of sale like gold can be.

Silver is the other precious metal used as a currency, not because it has a high value, but because it has a low one. It is better suited to day to day transactions over gold because of this.

 

[Into the Night]

I said nothing of the sort. Gold has a value of $2,425 an ounce in today's market.

A better way to put it is that the dollar has a value of 1/2425 oz of fine gold. Quite a bit less than the 1/20 oz it started as! An oz of gold is still worth an oz of gold. If you use an ounce of gold as the unit instead of some other currency, you easily remove the mask of comparing one fiat currency to another as a change in value.

After all, some fiat currencies have not performed as badly, or have performed much worse than the dollar.

What I said is gold has little INTRINSIC value. It has value because we as a society decree it to have value.

This is correct and is true of ALL money, even fiat currencies.

 

[Into the Night]

do you have reading comprehension problems?

I said it isn't inherently fiat. Yes - when a government, like ours decrees things, that makes it fiat

but metal does not need to be fiat. gold and other metals has long had a value without a government decree - including today.

No government can declare gold as a fiat currency, since no government can simply create gold out of thin air.

The use of gold as a currency is thousands of years old. That has outlasted any government.

 

[zymurgy]

You don't understand Keynesian economics.

I don't support Keynesian theory, but I do grasp what stimulant demand is and what turns mean. Deficit spending to stimulate demand has failed every time it's been tried, but that isn't fiat currency. Conversely, Arthur Laffer has been absolutely vindicated and validated - much to the chagrin of the socialists.

Let's try a simply thought experiment: You live in a village that has 10 cows and 10 bars of gold. The value of a cow is 1 bar of gold. Two cows have calves - what then is the value of a cow?

Monetary policy rests on the concept of equilibrium - keeping the supply of currency equal to the supply of goods and services. Introduction too much currency causes inflation - currency is worth less and prices rise. Conversely, increase in the volume of goods and services to a static money supply causes the value of goods and services to decrease.

George Stigler wrote extensively on monetary policy in conjunction with Milton Friedman in the utter disembowelment of Keynesian theory. Perhaps your greatest failure in grasping the concept at hand is that you don't understand that precious metals such as gold and silver are still fiat currency. Governments which depended on tangible backing still manipulated currency to provide a stable rate of exchange.

The federal reserve is a crooked racket that embezzles billions each year from American taxpayers. Does this mean we should not use currency? No more than the fact that democrats cheat in elections means we should not allow people to vote.

how did a village of just cows have calves


do we need to talk birds and bees with you before we get into more complicated matters?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Gold has value not because of it's workability, but because it's easy to measure it's purity.

Any metal is easy to measure purity.

Gold was sought after in ancient times precisely because it was soft and easy to work. It became a cultural norm for use to assign high value to it.

Note that in the America's - gold was not considered precious.

It does not have value because it's in the shape of a coin. It has value because you can buy and sell things with it..that societal agreement you mentioned.

You're missing the point. Governments regulated the supply of coins, influencing the buying power of them.

Tungsten is not easily checked for purity at the point of sale like gold can be.

More easily, due to the resistance to mineral acids.

Silver is the other precious metal used as a currency, not because it has a high value, but because it has a low one. It is better suited to day to day transactions over gold because of this.

Silver has the second highest value per ounce of precious metals.

But I agree that it is more suited to use as a fiat medium since there is less chance of hoarding.

 

[zymurgy]

No government can declare gold as a fiat currency, since no government can simply create gold out of thin air.

The use of gold as a currency is thousands of years old. That has outlasted any government.

they can decree it illegal to hold gold - which harms its value

in theory, they could decree that gold is worth more than what people feel it is worth - just not for as long as a time as they actually have to now acquire something people value without them decreeing it is of value

 

[Lao Tse]

ROFL

Again, you have zero education in economics and are arguing concepts you have no understanding of.

The moment that gold, silver, nickel, or copper is minted into coins it becomes fiat currency and is every bit as manipulated as paper or digital currency.

Too often those who have a vague and foggy notion of economic concepts assign intrinsic value to metal.

What is the intrinsic value of gold? It has none. You can't eat it. It won't warm your home. It is too soft to make useful tools. The value of gold is what someone else will pay you for it. "But Dr. Unc," you may say, "gold is worth $2.425 an ounce." BUT that value is nothing more than the arbitrary value placed by the market - what others are willing to pay. The metal itself has very little tangible value. Gold has no more intrinsic worth than does wood or stone. It is worth what a buyer will pay. Gold is valuable ONLY because of the societal agreement that it is valuable - no different than the agreement that paper money is valuable, or a bearer bond is valuable. All are valuable because of societal decree, as @zymurgy termed it.

I oppose the Federal Reserve - for all the reasons Friedman, Rothbard, et al. long ago explained. Congress was empowered by the constitution to coin money. Congress who theoretically answers to the voters.

However, that is a separate and distinct issue from the use of markers - fiat currency - which are critical to the functioning of a large, complex market. Equilibrium is critical a functioning society. Inflation is theft - theft by government (and the fed) to devalue incurred debt. The fed targets a 2% annual rate of inflation - which translates to taking 2% of every American's wealth each year. What is the correct rate of inflation? ZERO. The only way to achieve a zero or near-zero rate of inflation is through sound monetary policy.

and congress has given their authority over to the federal reserve, a fascist organization.

you still haven't explained how fiat currency isn't totalitarianism.

your emply elitism fails as a strategy.

 

[Uncensored2008]

how did a village of just cows have calves

The bulls from the next village came by,

do we need to talk birds and bees with you before we get into more complicated matters?

I notice you have no rational response to the concepts of static pools of goods and services being chased by a dynamic supply of currency, and the effect that has on the value proposition.

 

[Lao Tse]

Any metal is easy to measure purity.

Gold was sought after in ancient times precisely because it was soft and easy to work. It became a cultural norm for use to assign high value to it.

Note that in the America's - gold was not considered precious.



You're missing the point. Governments regulated the supply of coins, influencing the buying power of them.



More easily, due to the resistance to mineral acids.



Silver has the second highest value per ounce of precious metals.

But I agree that it is more suited to use as a fiat medium since there is less chance of hoarding.

you're still trying to change the meaning of fiat currency.

silver is consider sound currency.

I'm here to keep your lies and propaganda from succeeding.

 

[zymurgy]

The bulls from the next village came by,


I notice you have no rational response to the concepts of static pools of goods and services being chased by a dynamic supply of currency, and the effect that has on the value proposition.

pretty sure in your sophomoric example, the owner of the bull charged a fee, right?


regardless, over time the cost of goods and services go down. substantially down.

without governments fucking up things, we can actually see how much human ingenuity has made it cheaper for people to live, because not only did the cows have calves, we learned how to make more calves reach an age to reproduce. so over time, the value of food goes way way down - and this is a good thing

 

[Lao Tse]

You don't understand Keynesian economics.

I don't support Keynesian theory, but I do grasp what stimulant demand is and what turns mean. Deficit spending to stimulate demand has failed every time it's been tried, but that isn't fiat currency. Conversely, Arthur Laffer has been absolutely vindicated and validated - much to the chagrin of the socialists.

Let's try a simply thought experiment: You live in a village that has 10 cows and 10 bars of gold. The value of a cow is 1 bar of gold. Two cows have calves - what then is the value of a cow?

Monetary policy rests on the concept of equilibrium - keeping the supply of currency equal to the supply of goods and services. Introduction too much currency causes inflation - currency is worth less and prices rise. Conversely, increase in the volume of goods and services to a static money supply causes the value of goods and services to decrease.

George Stigler wrote extensively on monetary policy in conjunction with Milton Friedman in the utter disembowelment of Keynesian theory. Perhaps your greatest failure in grasping the concept at hand is that you don't understand that precious metals such as gold and silver are still fiat currency. Governments which depended on tangible backing still manipulated currency to provide a stable rate of exchange.

The federal reserve is a crooked racket that embezzles billions each year from American taxpayers. Does this mean we should not use currency? No more than the fact that democrats cheat in elections means we should not allow people to vote.

Keynesian economics is totalitarianism and elitism and fascism.

I reject it.

 

[Uncensored2008]

and congress has given their authority over to the federal reserve, a fascist organization.

I already stated that I oppose the Fed.

you still haven't explained how fiat currency isn't totalitarianism.

your emply elitism fails as a strategy.

You appear to not understand what fascism is.

Fascism is ultimately the supremacy of the state, the concept that ALL power ultimately is the rightful domain of the central, in our case federal, government.

 

[Lao Tse]

I already stated that I oppose the Fed.



You appear to not understand what fascism is.

Fascism is ultimately the supremacy of the state, the concept that ALL power ultimately is the rightful domain of the central, in our case federal, government.

no.

its the union of state and corporate power.


modern fascist are trying to change this meaning too.

change like you're trying to undefine sound currency.


you're dumber than you think you are.

 

[zymurgy]

You were not the one I would have guessed to devolve into ad hom.

you are a bit of an embarrasment is why

"Gold has value only because of societal agreement that it has value."

no, in capitalism each person individually decides value - for themselves. it isn't a collective here. that is just absurd that you went to the collective to determine value

hang it up - you are not really worth discussing fiat currency - you don't even understand value in capitalism

 

[Uncensored2008]

pretty sure in your sophomoric example, the owner of the bull charged a fee, right?

Nope, they just wandered off and then were later captured. (since we are being sophomoric.)

regardless, over time the cost of goods and services go down. substantially down.

without governments fucking up things, we can actually see how much human ingenuity has made it cheaper for people to live, because not only did the cows have calves, we learned how to make more calves reach an age to reproduce. so over time, the value of food goes way way down - and this is a good thing

That't not an answer. The drop dead example of a 1 to 1 ratio, what is the effect of adding to only one side of the equation. This reminds me of the exchange between Rothbard and Keynes where Keynes demanded to be obtuse and never give a straight answer to simple illustrations.

Economic truth, introduction of more goods and services will cause the value of currency to rise. Introduction of currency (no matter the format) will cause the value of said currency to fall.

Hence to provide consistent value, currency must increase and decrease equal to the increase or decrease in good and services. Otherwise prices will inflate or deflate - both of which are harmful to the economy at large.

It is this simple principle that Keynes refused to acknowledge and the reason that flooding the market with currency to create artificial demand during recessions only results in inflation, rather than actual recovery.

 

[Uncensored2008]

no.

its the union of state and corporate power.

Nonsense.

First off, the guilds used in Fascist Italy has no relation to corporations as you think of them. No stock sold to the public, no exchange with the owners selected by the state.

{
A fascist corporation is a government body that brings together federations of workers and employers syndicates belonging to the same profession and branch, to regulate production in a holistic manner. Each trade union would theoretically represent its professional concerns, especially by negotiation of labour contracts and the like. It was theorized that this method could result in harmony amongst social classes.[35]
}

Corporatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

modern fascist are trying to change this meaning too.

change like you're trying to undefine sound currency.


you're dumber than you think you are.

There's the ad hom I expected. When you get cornered, you lash out.