Capitalism Is EVIL!

[Uncensored2008]

you are a bit of an embarrasment is why

"Gold has value only because of societal agreement that it has value."

no, in capitalism each person individually decides value - for themselves. it isn't a collective here. that is just absurd that you went to the collective to determine value

So you deny the power of the market to establish value?

Interesting..

hang it up - you are not really worth discussing fiat currency - you don't even understand value in capitalism

ROFL

I accept your surrender.

You should pick up "Man, Economy, and State." It is a good primer for rational economic theory.

 

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Nonsense.

First off, the guilds used in Fascist Italy has no relation to corporations as you think of them. No stock sold to the public, no exchange with the owners selected by the state.

{
A fascist corporation is a government body that brings together federations of workers and employers syndicates belonging to the same profession and branch, to regulate production in a holistic manner. Each trade union would theoretically represent its professional concerns, especially by negotiation of labour contracts and the like. It was theorized that this method could result in harmony amongst social classes.[35]
}

Corporatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's the ad hom I expected. When you get cornered, you lash out.

No.

it actually is the union of state and corporate power.

you're changing the meanings of things because you like the union of state and corporate power, that fascism is.

 

[zymurgy]

So you deny the power of the market to establish value?

Interesting..



ROFL

I accept your surrender.

You should pick up "Man, Economy, and State." It is a good primer for rational economic theory.

so sophomoric

the market is made up of individuals making individual decisions

the end

 

[Into the Night]

of course, fiat currency banker/state Keynesian fascism has forever changed the nature of what we call "capitalism". Trade is one thing. central banker Keynesian totalitarianism and the brainwashing of all the citizenry is something else.

Communism isn't capitalism. No meaning of any word has changed.

 

[Into the Night]

Then "no," you've not read Keynes not Rothbard.



Perhaps an introductory to macro-economics would be in order. Do they have night schools or community colleges in your area?

Consider this, most reasoning adults would agree that voting for representative and leaders is the most fair method of choosing them. Yet democrats cheat in every election and corrupt the results. Does that mean that voting is totalitarianism?

I don't think you even grasp what fiat currency is. But what is your proposal for an alternative? Instead of money, how would people exchange goods?

Money does not have to be fiat to be money.

The faith in the dollar is waning and fast. People are already looking around for another currency. Some are investigating Bitcoin, others are investigating gold, and still others are pushing SDRs.

In my opinion, gold and silver will win out, for the same reasons they won out for thousands of years.

 

[Into the Night]

I recommend only a sound currency and in lieu of that, barter is better than Keynesian totalitarianism.

Fine, but what do you consider to be a 'sound currency'? Instead of answering with a vague term, what, specifically, do YOU consider to be a sound currency?

You've obviously rejected the dollar as one (and I don't blame you!). I am just asking you to be more specific. What currency would you like to see? Gold? Silver? Something else?

 

[Into the Night]

No.

it actually is the union of state and corporate power.

you're changing the meanings of things because you like the union of state and corporate power, that fascism is.

Communism is NOT the union of State and corporate power. Corporations are often damaged or destroyed by communism.

 

[Obtenebrator]

The faith in the dollar is waning and fast. People are already looking around for another currency. Some are investigating Bitcoin, others are investigating gold, and still others are pushing SDRs.

You should DEFINITELY put all your money in Bitcoin. Or maybe find something even more speculative and volatile!

In my opinion, gold and silver will win out, for the same reasons they won out for thousands of years.

You sound like an AM talk radio station. LOL.

 

[Into the Night]

so sophomoric

the market is made up of individuals making individual decisions

the end

This is exactly right. A free market has no government regulating it. It is self regulating.

If prices go too high, people stop buying, and buy something else, or a cheaper alternative from a competitor.
If prices go too low, the businesses are not making a good profit anymore and could wind up going out of business as a result.

A business wants the highest price it can get for it's products.
A buyer wants the lowest price he can get for the products.
The two negotiate (often using a middleman marketeer such as a broker or warehouse (store). Somewhere in the middle they agree on the price.

This is called 'price discovery' and is an inherent component of any free market.

The free market is immortal. You can't kill it, no matter how oppressive a government. It will always exist, even if it's driven into a black market. See your local drug dealer for details. Even he has to compete against other drug dealers and there are plenty of buyers willing to pay that price.

 

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Communism is NOT the union of State and corporate power. Corporations are often damaged or destroyed by communism.

right.

fascism is the union of state and corporate power. communism is often also very fascistic behind the scenes.

 

[Into the Night]

You should DEFINITELY put all your money in Bitcoin. Or maybe find something even more speculative and volatile!

I have already laid out the disadvantages of any blockchain currency, including Bitcoin.

You sound like an AM talk radio station. LOL.

Thank you. I used to work in radio, but as an engineer. I know how much guys like that work to produce their content, and I appreciate all they do.

 

[Into the Night]

right.

fascism is the union of state and corporate power. communism is often also very fascistic behind the scenes.

Redefinition fallacies.

Fascism is not the union of State and corporate power. Corporations are often damaged or destroyed by fascism.
Communism is not fascism.
Capitalism is not fascism.

 

[Into the Night]

libertarians used to think sound money mattered.

not anymore.

you're just fucking neocons now.

What makes you think they don't??

 

[Obtenebrator]

Thank you. I used to work in radio, but as an engineer

Is that a job that doesn't require much skill or ability?

. I know how much guys like that work to produce their content, and I appreciate all they do.

I'm sure you do.

 

[Into the Night]

ROFL

Again, you have zero education in economics and are arguing concepts you have no understanding of.

The moment that gold, silver, nickel, or copper is minted into coins it becomes fiat currency and is every bit as manipulated as paper or digital currency.

Reversal fallacy. The minted coin has value because it's a precious metal, not because it's in the shape of a coin.
Governments cannot create metal out of thin air, like federal reserve notes.

Gold is not paper or bits.
Silver is not paper or bits.
Nickel is not paper or bits.
Copper is not paper or bits.

Too often those who have a vague and foggy notion of economic concepts assign intrinsic value to metal.

I have already stated some of them to you. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

What is the intrinsic value of gold? It has none.

Gold is used in electronics, jewelry, radiation shielding, decoration, and of course, currency.

You can't eat it.

You can, by exchanging it for food.

It won't warm your home.

It will, by exchanging it for fuel.

It is too soft to make useful tools.

You can get harder materials by exchanging gold for them. BTW, you can't eat steel or warm your home with it any better than you can with gold.

The value of gold is what someone else will pay you for it.

True of ALL currencies.

"But Dr. Unc," you may say, "gold is worth $2.425 an ounce."

A better way to put it is that a dollar is 1/2425 oz of fine gold. Far worse than the 1/20 oz it started as.

BUT that value is nothing more than the arbitrary value placed by the market - what others are willing to pay.

Correct. The free market rules here.

The metal itself has very little tangible value.

Argument of the Stone fallacy.

Gold has no more intrinsic worth than does wood or stone.

All three have intrinsic value.

It is worth what a buyer will pay.

Same with wood or stone.

Gold is valuable ONLY because of the societal agreement that it is valuable

True of ALL currencies.

- no different than the agreement that paper money is valuable, or a bearer bond is valuable.

They are valuable, but becoming less so rather alarmingly.

All are valuable because of societal decree, as @zymurgy termed it.

I oppose the Federal Reserve - for all the reasons Friedman, Rothbard, et al. long ago explained. Congress was empowered by the constitution to coin money. Congress who theoretically answers to the voters.

Congress was also directed that the only currency of legal tender was to be gold and silver. Funny how that part seems to get left out...

However, that is a separate and distinct issue from the use of markers - fiat currency - which are critical to the functioning of a large, complex market.

No, they aren't. Gold and silver can accomplish all the things the dollar can and more, including lines of credit, loans, banking, etc.

Equilibrium is critical a functioning society. Inflation is theft - theft by government (and the fed) to devalue incurred debt. The fed targets a 2% annual rate of inflation - which translates to taking 2% of every American's wealth each year. What is the correct rate of inflation? ZERO. The only way to achieve a zero or near-zero rate of inflation is through sound monetary policy.

The Fed is losing control. They cannot dictate the inflation rate. That is set by Congress, and Congress is losing control of the federal reserve note version of the dollar.

 

[Into the Night]

Is that a job that doesn't require much skill or ability?



I'm sure you do.

Both jobs require tremendous skill and ability, which is why they pay so well.

You seem to be trying to enter a paradox. You say I sound like an AM talk station, then you say I don't. Which is it, dude?

 

[Obtenebrator]

Both jobs require tremendous skill and ability, which is why they pay so well.

So how did YOU get a job as an engineer?

Blowjobs that important to the hiring manager?

 

[Into the Night]

Manipulating the supply in the market of said coins, does.

Irrelevant. Coins do not set the value of any metal. It is not possible for them to be a fiat currency.

The United States used to mint $20 gold coins.

That is true. A dollar is a unit of weight. It was equal to 1/20 oz of fine gold. The $20 gold coin was one oz of fine gold.

How did the value of the coin become $20?

The $20 gold coin was one oz of find gold.

Through supply and demand, the number of coins released into the market was set to ensure that the market value of the coins was $20.

Nope. The value of gold doesn't change. One ounce is still one ounce.

Monetary policy,

Government spending is not fiat currency. There was no other monetary policy. Anyone could mint a $20 coin just so long as it had one ounce of fine gold. Banks often did this at the time, minting their own coins. They're collectables now.

long before the Fed. Further, consider "silver certificates," which promised the value in silver for paper currency upon demand.

Banks also printed both gold and silver certificates, which were receipts of deposit.

Did the promise change the fact that the government printed money with no backing in metals?

The Federal Reserve Note is not a receipt of gold or silver. It has no commodity backing.

Many libertarians think that was backed currency.

People would trade gold or silver certificates as a sort of currency. Anyone holding them could go to that bank and get the gold or silver stored there.

Fractional reserves of silver proved them wrong. (which is still done with pure paper currency.)

There is no such thing as a 'fractional reserve' of silver.

One ounce of silver is one ounce of silver. There is no fraction.

 

[Into the Night]

you are a bit of an embarrasment is why

"Gold has value only because of societal agreement that it has value."

no, in capitalism each person individually decides value - for themselves. it isn't a collective here. that is just absurd that you went to the collective to determine value

hang it up - you are not really worth discussing fiat currency - you don't even understand value in capitalism

Oddly enough, he is right here. ANY currency, even gold or silver, has value only because of a societal agreement (the market).
While the market is not a collective, it IS a collection of individuals, buying and selling.

The value of ANY product is determined by that same market. It is the same mechanism of price discovery.

 

[Into the Night]

Any metal is easy to measure purity.

Not true.

Gold was sought after in ancient times precisely because it was soft and easy to work. It became a cultural norm for use to assign high value to it.

No, it is because it is easy to measure it's purity and weigh at the point of sale.

Note that in the America's - gold was not considered precious.

Yes it was.

You're missing the point. Governments regulated the supply of coins, influencing the buying power of them.

Coins do not set the value of any metal. Reversal fallacy.

More easily, due to the resistance to mineral acids.

Acid is not a mineral.

Silver has the second highest value per ounce of precious metals.

Not true. I suggest you go study the current precious metals market.

But I agree that it is more suited to use as a fiat medium since there is less chance of hoarding.

Precious metals are not a fiat currency. No commodity as currency is a fiat currency.